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Indivara wrote: , forcefully installing Windows 10
It's the way companies are going though. Google Chrome, for example, auto updates. I know it's not an OS, but doesn't Android and Chrome OS auto update?
In fact, Microsoft now only supports IE11 and Edge, I believe. It used to be that they supported several versions back. Those times seem to be changing.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: doesn't Android and Chrome OS auto update?
I switched off auto-update on my Android device after the newest update bricked the phone - I had to send the phone off to get it fixed as it kept cycling making it impossible for me to get into any mode in order to revert the OS.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Indivara wrote: We need other versions of Windows for development
I wonder if that's really as incontrovertible as you suggest?
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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RyanDev wrote: Too much whining about this topic.
I agree, but there are businesses that haven't vetted Windows 10 against internal apps yet, such as ours. Just letting Windows 10 install, without due research and testing would be retarded.
I'm glad you have "0" issues, but I assure you that you are an exception to the case.
If you don't mind me asking, do you do IT/Software for a living or just a hobby? Student? Where a f***ed up install really wouldn't matter so much...reason why I ask.
-- Cheers
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Slacker007 wrote: do you do IT/Software for a living or just a hobby
I do web development so mostly concerned with how IIS runs and the browser. But so far Edge (win 10's browser) works mostly like chrome. And chrome often changes things without much notice so I do have to keep up with that. For me, in the long run, it's easier keeping up with the latest version than trying to support 12 different versions of browsers.
I'm not saying your complaints are not valid.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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That makes a lot of sense for you, and, presumably, most other web developers, too.
It still doesn't change that other devs want a reliable, stable system. Windows 10 is anything but right now. Maybe it will be in a year or so.
Even worse, upgrading an existing Windows installation to W10 is proven to create an unstable system. I've had all manner of problems, up to and including unforced shutdowns, not even showing a bluescreen (but events in the log similar to what you see after bluescreens). Mary Jo Fowley wrote an article about the exact same issues. A clean installation appears to fix them though.
Anyway, MS shouldn't be forcing an upgrade on existing installations. Instead it should help the user create a system image (for unrolling) and then do a clean install.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Stefan_Lang wrote: upgrading an existing Windows installation to W10 is proven to create an unstable system.
Technically, it has not been proven since I upgraded win7 to win10 with no issues. Just saying. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Dunno who proved it. I upgraded my Win7 development machine and have had no problems to speak of. An occasional setting might get scrogged somewhere but nothing that I can remember. It seems fine to me.
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Proven isn't the right word in the mathematical sense, but upgrading Windows to a newer version has always created a less clean system than doing a fresh installation. Even if you did nothing but install Windows upgrades on the previous system, these mess up the registry and probably other parts of the system, leaving dangling remnants and other garbage.
Point in case: When I did a fresh Windows installation and all the upgrades in decembre, a registry cleaner tool showed plenty of issues left from those upgrade processes. I haven't bothered to check other parts of the system, but it's obvious there is some big potential for degrading the system. Doing an Upgrade to a new version would not clean up that garbage.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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I know. That's why I put the smiley. I was just being silly.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: For me, in the long run, it's easier keeping up with the latest version than trying to support 12 different versions of browsers.
Forgive a simple desktop dev for a silly question: Wouldn't it be even easier to just adhere to the web standards? I can think of a few possible reasons but none of them has "use browser-specific stuff" as the best possible solution. Just curious.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Stefan_Lang wrote: Wouldn't it be even easier to just adhere to the web standards?
For me? No, because browsers don't follow standards.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I'm not whining about it. I tried Windows 10 and with Classic Shell installed it was pretty much the same as Windows 8.1. However, once I found about the loss of control on updates and the tracking/privacy issues I figured it was time to switch. My laptop has been Mint Linux for months now (and I like it!). My main machine is Win 8.1 but will probably get updated to 10 eventually (just for Games and Photoshop). It will be dual boot (Mint Linux) though so I can do my normal computing on an operating system I control.
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Thank you for telling, in my case, I still don't know if the industrial software I do use is compatible or not with Windows 10...
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Just did that - Thank you!
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While I understand that this thread has been discussed from a developer point of view, we need to look at it from a user point of view. I am a 66 year old amateur programmer, but I have friends who ask me to help them with computer issues. Most people, my age or even much younger, don't understand the ramifications of some "updates". They didn't realize, for example, that Windows 8 was going to look so radically different (Where's my start menu?). Yes, Windows 10 brought it back, but you can't stack the menu with what you want (rather than what you most recently used). Or at least I haven't found how yet from my one sacrificial lamb computer that I put Windows 10 on. Let's take a step back. Philosophically, I detest Microsoft's "Cloud First, Mobile First" thinking. No way would I store my data on someone else's "cloud" (i.e. servers). Data breaches, government spying, corporate "data mining", etc., is a fundamental denial of privacy and democracy. Edward Snowden made us all aware of what is going on. Windows 10 should be called Windows Spyware with its "advertising ID" feature and others which I have gone through in settings to turn off. When do we treat the user as the customer, not the corporations and governments?
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If you don't pay for the product - you are the product.
Trite, but true. 
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack.
--Winston Churchill
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This worked for me...
Get a cheap drive. Unplug all the others and install Win 7 (or whatever) on it. Let the Win10 upgrade happen. Remove the drive and re-connect your others. Now, as far MS are concerned, you have Win 10.
No more nag ware, well, for the time being...
To be honest though, I have Win 10 on a laptop and a PC and, once classic shell was installed, it works fine.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
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Unix will give you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot. If you didn't think rope would do that, you should have read the man page.
True dat!
veni bibi saltavi
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Same guy[^]?
"You'd have to be a floating database guru clad in a white toga and ghandi level of sereneness to fix this goddamn clusterfuck.", BruceN[ ^]
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beeyatch! 
veni bibi saltavi
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I guess it's a question of whether you'd prefer the option of possibly shooting yourself in the foot (Linux, which I just installed yesterday, dual booting with Win 8 on an HP 2000 notebook) or surely being shot in the ass (Microsoft 10-10, listenin' in---as for proof, I suggest you go with the preponderance of the evidence).
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Model lock - in London we have a belief that the past (empire, toffs, Sherlock Holmes) is inherently more valuable than the future. However the future cannot be avoided so we have to fudge it in like this.
The area of London (Bermondsley) where my grandfather was brought up and worked all his life is a good case in point. The orphanage he lived in is now a block of trendy apartments and the dock he worked is a yachting marina. This change was inevitable but we have a strange paradox in that we move the people out (who are the authors of history) and leave the building facades behind (that are the artefacts of history).
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In Italy too, and I think in most of Europe. Probably because we HAVE a history, while the colonies are pretty new historically speaking.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
"When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey
If a coffee bean is between the Earth and the Sun, is it a Java Eclipse? -- Sascha Lefèvre
/xml>
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