|
|
Online communities... are difficult things! 
All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far! 
|
|
|
|
|
Super Lloyd wrote:
All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far!
So far. But I do see it slipping. Years ago CP was a very good place to both ask and answer questions. Though lately, especially in the Q&A section it is not so anymore. At least not for me.
If someone asks a question about 'A' then answer the question about 'A', do not tell them that 'A' is the wrong approach and they had better use 'B' instead.
I also see beginner questions being down voted, probably for being too simple. We all started knowing nothing and we learn by asking. Most times beginners just need a point in the right direction, and Google is not the direction they need.
I also find that the more difficult or obscure questions do not get answered.
The powers that be at CP had better be careful of this or soon CP will go the same way as SO.
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
|
|
|
|
|
A lot of the "beginner" questions that get down-voted earn it because the person isn't really asking a question. You get stuff like a post of a homework assignment. No question, just the homework assignment, like they want you to do their work for them and just hand them the code.
You get stuff like, "how do I fix the error in this code?" and then they don't supply the error message, the line it throws on or post a huge code snippet and expect you to hunt through the code to find any and all problems.
How about opposite? "I got this error message ... How do I fix it?" and don't show the code at all. Well, you might want to start with showing us the code that threw it!
Stuff like "How do I use this library?" and give you some name of a library nobody has ever heard of. No other questions or specifics about what they're doing or any problem they're having.
After 10+ years around here we have noticed the quality of questions going down hill. It's not so much a technical, "beginner" problems that get down-voted. It's usually the OP's lack of communications skills in merely asking the question, such as the ability to provide a context or even has some comprehension of "what would someone need to know about this problem to help me solve it?"
Asking a question is a skill. With the passage of time, it seems that this is becoming a lost art instead of a basic educational necessity.
|
|
|
|
|
Your points are valid.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: basic educational necessity
It is very apparent that many questioners have very little basic education. If they did they would know some simple mathematics, how to consult documentation and use Google to do research.
Many of us are professionals who learnt to program because a computer was a better tool than a slide rule. So we are used to mingling with a certain cohort and take certain rules for granted. The internet has brought us in contact with many and different people. This is a challenge which I have thought a lot about. Laziness accompanied by a complete lack of shame should not be rewarded but a genuine effort to learn can only be applauded. How to adjudicate this is the conundrum.
Peter Wasser
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
modified 4-Dec-15 0:44am.
|
|
|
|
|
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: Asking a question is a skill. With the passage of time, it seems that this is becoming a lost art instead of a basic educational necessity.
THIS
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
|
|
|
|
|
So far I feel I have been well received here with my questions and some may have not been the best or clearest but from my experience I've been well rewarded when trying to improve the question and get a small discussion going. Maybe not the best way to work with QA but I think that having a good spirit around this sort of thing helps a lot. Even my more diffuse questions that doesn't contain specific technicalities as netted me worthwhile information allowing me to progress with solving my problems.
Maybe one problem is that a lot of questions are better suited in a discussion forum or rather in a chat where the poster might then find that they asked about the wrong thing. Maybe a multilayered QA site could solve this. A way to have QA, forum and chat semi integrated.
A chat with short-lived topics which wither can evolve in to topics for discussion or distilled into a question more fitting QA. Sometimes you see questions at stack overflow which gets edited by both contributors and poster as the question evolves as the poster or someone else realizes that another question is more fitting, and that when answered will actually solve the original problem.
Just trying to express this I feel my communication skills lacking and I'm unsure if I manage to express what I want said. In QA places this is usually compounded by multiple people on different levels when it comes to language and communication skills as well as technical skills.
|
|
|
|
|
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: How about opposite? "I got this error message ... How do I fix it?" and don't show the code at all. Well, you might want to start with showing us the code that threw it!
I think this one can be a matter of wording for a lot of people. There are times where I'm simply looking for what an error code means, and what could usually cause it. Kinda like when I first ran into "Object reference not set to an instance of an object" error, I was beginning and had NO IDEA what this even meant. I asked how to fix it, and I was given the fix without even being told what the error was.
Lately, if I have an error code question, I just ask what might throw the error code, so I can learn to fix it on my own.
|
|
|
|
|
No, not really. I've seen too many of these where they don't tell you what the error is or they post the error message and a code dump. That's it, nothing else. You have to guess where the error is being thrown from and they usually want their code fixed for them.
What you said is an exception.
|
|
|
|
|
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: What you said is an exception.
I don't know if you meant that as a pun, but I thought it was pretty funny... 
I'm retired. There's a nap for that...
- Harvey
|
|
|
|
|
I see it too. I've been trolled twice in the past month on here; not too bad, but it irked me. I don't like to answer a question correctly and have it down-voted. Unfortunately, people have the safety of anonymity on the web, similarly as they do in their car; trolling the left lane (or right in GB).
We're in the silly season and we should all probably think twice before posting or down voting a question on here or any other site. Even when someone posts a beginner level tip under article that is really bad, we should thank them for their effort and not be mean; just inform them how they could improve it. This is a very good site, yet we should all be a bit more understanding and polite.
Thanks for your pov.
|
|
|
|
|
I see so many of my thoughts confirmed in your comment 
modified 19-Jan-21 21:04pm.
|
|
|
|
|
PJ Arends wrote: If someone asks a question about 'A' then answer the question about 'A', do not tell them that 'A' is the wrong approach and they had better use 'B' instead.
I see your point. However, it's also a good idea for them to point out how to do B if B indeed is a better approach.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
|
|
|
|
|
PJ Arends wrote: Years ago CP was a very good place to both ask and answer questions.
I don't think CP was ever a very good Q&A community. It's the articles that make it a great place. Years ago, there were also good technology-related discussions in the Lounge, but that's gone.
|
|
|
|
|
I can't really speak for all, in my quests to find answers I found StackOverFlow pretty much useless this caused me to find CP and all is well, questions got answered with no abuse. Can't say I am surprised though!
|
|
|
|
|
I have never actually asked a question on SO, however I get 90% of my answers from them. If I can't find an answer on SO I ask the question on CP 
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
|
|
|
|
|
I hadn't realized that it was ever intended for beginners. I'd always assumed that a misunderstanding of this was the source of much pain for the inept, lazy and inarticulate.
Granted, the article you linked to showed some really poor behaviour in terms of questions being closed. However, the biggest contributor to poor content has always been in my opinion those whom are rep-whores or newbies. I've had precisely one poor experience with a high-rep user, perhaps I'm sheltered or have been rather fortunate. Admittedly, I've only asked 1 question.
It's a site for grown-ups and I'm perfectly happy to see it offending the sensibilities of those who dont care to familiarize themselves with the expectations and culture of the site. Other places are where you go if you want to have a conversation or to feel warm-and-fuzzy. Stack-Overflow is where you go if you'd like a specific question answered.
As a kid, mum always said "I'm not going to reward poor behaviour." Whining for something in the supermarket not only meant obtaining it was impossible, but also that chances of something next time were poor at best. Sure, holding everyone to such a standard is difficult if not impossible - is that a reason to not try though? I dont think it is.
|
|
|
|
|
I disagree. Right at the top of the pages is are both Questions and Ask Question button.
It's a Q&A site... nothing more.
I've been coding for 30 years and seen a lot of forums. SO is the only one where I get regularly flamed. I agree with the article.. the member and mods seems to go out of their way to ridicule and insult OP's because of a typo or some other non-question related issue.
To be blunt - if someone doesn't have an answer, DON'T ANSWER... how hard is that?
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
|
|
|
|
|
Kevin Marois wrote: I disagree.
With what, exactly?
Kevin Marois wrote: Right at the top of the pages is are both Questions and Ask Question button.
Actually, even closer to the top of the page is a menu option titled 'help' - the very first option of which is "Tour" - Start here for a quick overview of the site. I dont find anything presented there ambiguous. Many(most?) of the posts that receive a hostile reception are ones which have clearly not given consideration to the directions contained in this introduction page.
The very first words on the page are in fact, "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers."- that in itself clearly and unequivocally (to me) says the site is not for beginners.
Kevin Marois wrote: I've been coding for 30 years and seen a lot of forums. SO is the only one where I get regularly flamed. I agree with the article.. the member and mods seems to go out of their way to ridicule and insult OP's because of a typo or some other non-question related issue.
Same, you've about 5 years on me - but don't you remember Usenet? Now that was a truly frosty and hostile environment with a far less clear mission statement. I've been flamed at SO once that I can recall - from some fella working as an Aus defence contractor with a rep of 400,000 or so.
I guess my experiences have more fortunate than yours. I think the fact that it's aimed primarily at professional programmers speaks volumes for why some people are treated like fools. Walking into SO and asking how to put together a Hello World program is just begging for a smacking.
Kevin Marois wrote: To be blunt - if someone doesn't have an answer, DON'T ANSWER... how hard is that?
It's all well and good to say that someone shouldn't answer if they don't have one, but it's an entirely different thing to read the Tour page and do as is said to be expected. Its expected that clarification will be sought, errors fixed and strident effort applied to make the site good. I agree that in many cases, an insulting comment will be supplied, rather than a simple, silent edit of the question. But surely political correctness for the sake of the thin-skinned does more damage than good?
Poor answers should be discouraged, as should poor questions. Failure to do so simply allows the signal:noise ratio to decrease, which is in no-ones best interests. Can you look at QA around here and tell me with a straight face that it does a better job?
|
|
|
|
|
Your points are very constructive. However when you require 'articulate' I would qualify that a little. People who do not have English as a first language can be assisted to get the question clear. Also I see no reason why a beginner cannot ask a reasonable question so making them feel excluded as part of a mission statement is not necessary. Just apply the same rules to all. I agree fully with your comments about maintaining quality and discouraging dud answers.
Peter Wasser
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
modified 3-Dec-15 21:50pm.
|
|
|
|
|
Another well considered response, as always.
I find it amusing that my touching on the topic of being articulate was not particularly articulate itself. You've qualified it nicely. It's common to see questions written in pidgin English which display far more effort than those of many native speakers - I for one am disappointed when conscientious non-native speakers are punished. Its precisely these types of questions that I find so enriching and often, the biggest take-away with real use in the face-face world.
If my German was 1/2 as good as the pidgin English usually is, I'd feel very fortunate.
|
|
|
|
|
I happen to be pretty hard nosed, and thick skinned. Technically an adult. I've already written my program in VBA and am learning Python.
1v1 me bro.
|
|
|
|
|
PythonHeadBanger wrote: I happen to be pretty hard nosed, and thick skinned. Technically an adult. I've already written my program in VBA and am learning Python.
1v1 me bro.
Laughs. Thanks for that, here catch a vote. (1v1 me bro.)
Syntactical white-space should be against the geneva convention, I gave up on python a decade ago, for this and other reasons. The fact that its the scripting language of Blender is the only reason I ever bothered with it. NumPy is quite nice, but not quite enough to make it worthwhile for me.
Pick a time and a place my friend. I taught myself Turbo Pascal while in detention in high-school and moved on to x86 assembly from there. In uni, people asked me more questions than the lecturer in programming class.
Your turn! 
|
|
|
|
|
#HeadBangerWREKT
I will look into Blender as that seems like some pretty cool stuff. Thanks for the heads up.
|
|
|
|
|
I always love a good-sport.
Yeah, Blender was pretty damn good when I used it last, at around version 2.49 or so. Around the time that the interface changed for v 2.50, I no longer needed it for day-day work, it's well worth the buy-in price ($0)
|
|
|
|
General 
News 
Suggestion 
Question 
Bug 
Answer 
Joke 
Praise 
Rant 
Admin 
Submit an article or tip
