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LOL,
What you mean to say is more than half FEEL they are underpaid.
Here is the problem. Where do you work? What value do you add?
IMO, you are only underpaid if you are outperforming AND you make
less than you EASILY could for less performance!
I own a business, and have employees. Developers. I MUST under pay them
to some extent. If I paid them EXACTLY what they are worth to my clients, I
would go out of business. But I also pay them for 3-5 weeks of vacation/time off,
for which NO CLIENT pays. Then I pay for Equipment, Tools, Licenses. And I give
them 16GB, Dual SSD, Dual Monitor BEAST computers.
This stuff aint cheap!
But as you read in this thread. Some people realize that if you work for a
Volunteer organization, you cant get paid way above industry norms, and if you
are on a leading edge team, getting great contracts... You should not be hurting for
money.
But here to, the key thing is that EXPECTATIONS should be different.
You are ONLY WORTH what you can get someone to pay you.
This reminds me of an Oprah episode my wife watched. My wife comes to me to tell me
that she is worth > $100,000.00/yr for being a stay at home mom, and that it was the hardest
job out there because you are always on call, work overtime. It's 24/7 baby!
I quickly explained to her 3 things:
1) It is the SINGLE PARENT that has the hardest job (and I might be willing to prove it to you if you keep watching Oprah, LOL)
2) That number is bogus, because BEING on-call <> Working 24/7
3) It is ONLY worth that much if you can get someone to PAY YOU THAT MUCH to do it!
While there might be some Nanny for Angelina who can charge that. Most can't.
Are stay at home moms underpaid? Or do they have hard jobs?
I think, in tech, our jobs are harder than most people realize. I think we are often under appreciated. And finally, I think we get what we deserve in the long run! And we ALWAYS get
what we value. Because our actions are dictated by our values!
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Kirk 10389821 wrote: I own a business, and have employees. Developers. I MUST under pay them to some extent
For a contract-based business, like it sounds yours is, this is absolutely valid. And you're not underpaying them, so much as not paying them for the parts of the business they don't have to dealwith for themselves.. benefits, business space, equipment, sales, etc.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: You are ONLY WORTH what you can get someone to pay you.
True, but you are also only worth what they have to pay to get someone with your expertise, knowledge and experience. That's why some jobs are paid only minimum wage -- any employable person has sufficient skills to satisfy them.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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If they want to treat it as a job, then if they think they aren't getting paid enough, then don't do the job!
If enough women stop being mothers, then society will raise their wages - supply and demand.
Currently there doesn't seem to be a particular shortage of new humans, so wages will be depressed.
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Surely it must be true that half of us are underpaid, just on a statistical basis.
As for thinking you're underpaid...I remember being a very smart new hire. I remember wondering why some guys with 5 or 10 years of experience earned so much more than I did when I was clearly smarter than they were, knew more stuff, had a better technical education, etc.
But those guys had something I didn't have, and something I couldn't even imagine; experience. You can't evaluate experience until you have it. It's the reason you're worth more after a few years. People don't get smarter as they get older, but they do get more experience. The learn how to work with the team. They memorize the intricacies of a code base, they learn how not to fail.
Smart new devs need to find somebody they trust and take their word for it, experience does matter.
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Considering that getting older is inevitable, and there is now rampant and uncontrolled age discrimination (thanks to that product of an a**hole delivery running Facebook) it is wise to get your money upfront, as in next paycheck. Nobody gives retirements anymore, and developers are making people into disposable assets, including themselves. You're going to become unemployable, you're not one of the Rothschilds. We're dooming ourselves to the future desired by the 1%.
Underpaid? Hell, unemployed.
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Sometimes it requires looking at the company culture you signed on to.
Nothing like the review I had once where they said I was being paid too much for what I was doing.
I came back with, where is that my fault? I don't get to choose how much you pay me, nor do I get to choose what I work on.
The company tended to pay better than most, mostly because they didn't know what they were doing (they were dragged kicking and screaming all the way into the computer age and overpaid big time for the consultants they initially used and thought they were getting a deal when they moved development in house).
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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Happy Birthday CodeProject 
Cheers
KR
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Hippo Birdie 2 Ewe!
Hippo Birdie 2 Ewe!
Hippo Birdie dear Codeproject,
hippo Biiiiiiiirdie 2222222 Ewwwwwwwwwe!
Oh gawd! That means it's 16... So it should start noticing girls and speaking only in grunts.
Well that explains QA anyway... 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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OriginalGriff wrote: Well that explains QA anyway...
lol, very true (showing my age, apparently lol isnt used anymore) ... 
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Oh, sweet sixteen...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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OriginalGriff wrote: it's 16
That explains mysterious reduction of beer quantities in the fridge!
"You'd have to be a floating database guru clad in a white toga and ghandi level of sereneness to fix this goddamn clusterfuck.", BruceN[ ^]
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... and after this one, many many many more years of success 
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KrunalRohit wrote: Happy Birthday CodeProject 
Patrice
“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.” Albert Einstein
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The very first entry for CodeProject in the Wayback Machine is from February 29, 2000: https://web.archive.org/web/20000229171824/http://www.codeproject.com/[^]
Headlines include: Is Microsoft working on Office for Linux? and The Future of Visual C++. The poll: Should Microsoft make Windows open source?
Well, how much the world has changed in the meantime, but some of that stuff is still recent. 
Happy Birthday!
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Several users have posted messages here, complaining about Win 10. I was apprehensive at first, and wanted to wait, but then my curiosity got the better of me and I decided to try it. I roughly followed these steps:
1. First I created an image of my systems drive, In case I decided to revert to 8.1.
2. I upgraded my existing installation to 10. This step is essential, because it gives you an activated Win 10 setup. When you later do a clean install from a "OEM" disc, Microsoft will recognize your computer as eligible for 10 and you will have no trouble getting the setup activated. I much prefer a "clean" installation on a blank drive, rather than an "upgraded" setup.
3. Then I downloaded the ISO file to create a Win 10 install disc from Microsoft and burned a DVD to do the installation.
4. Backed up all data on my systems drive. There wasn't much, as I use a second internal drive to store my data.
5. Using an old Active@ disc I bought years ago from LSoft, I deleted all partitions on my systems drive.
6. Created a new recovery partition on the drive. If you don't create this partition, the Windows installer will create it. However, Windows is inclined to make this partition so small that after time, it will not have enough space to create a shadow copy of itself and you will not be able to create a shadow image of your entire systems drive. I make the recovery partition 2 GB, which is plenty.
7. Mark the recovery partition as Active (important). There is no need to assign a drive letter to this partition.
8. Create a second partition, using the entire remainder of the systems drive. Make this partition a Primary partition. Do NOT mark it as active. Assign drive letter C.
9. Using the Microsoft disc, install Windows 10 on the second, large partition. Skip the two steps where it asks you for an activation code.
10. As soon as Windows runs, assuming you have Internet access, the installation should become activated, provided you did not skip step 2.
11. Install all your Apps and updates.
I had absolutely zero issues with 10, and I am very pleased with it.
How do we preserve the wisdom men will need,
when their violent passions are spent?
- The Lost Horizon
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Wow, this sounds like a lot of work. I can't recall the last time I used a DVD to install Windows, let alone booted into normal setup. I always use a USB pen drive, boot into WinPE, use a diskpart script to create the partition layout and just apply a personalized image (that hopefully works...) that is already configured the way I want, and with all update packages integrated (I started this with Windows 7 because I got sick of downloading 150 updates when you install it from the vanilla image). It requires a little work to initally set this up, but if you have to do it pretty often (friends, etc.) it's really a time saver.
I think Windows 10 is okay, you can still configure it to minimize all the telemetry/privacy issues (if you care) and remove all the mobile/cloud stuff you don't want/need. Plus, it runs pretty smooth in general.
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It's not as bad as it sounds. Keep in mind that Win 10 is new, and there are not many updates for the OS yet.
What also helped me, is that I have a SSD systems drive, that just about doubles your write speed. The entire process took me about 8 hours, and a big part of that was setting up Visual Studio with all its updates.
I believe it was worth my while. I like to have full control over aspects like partition sizes, etc.
How do we preserve the wisdom men will need,
when their violent passions are spent?
- The Lost Horizon
modified 14-Nov-15 16:27pm.
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I installed 'Destroy Windows 10 Spying[^]' ...it's mostly a bunch of firewall rules and entries in the HOSTS file to redirect telemetry to nowhere...seems to be working, only had it going a couple of days.
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Looks interesting, thanks!
How do we preserve the wisdom men will need,
when their violent passions are spent?
- The Lost Horizon
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You're welcome!
I figure they aren't going to let up on the spying thing, which was their whole rationale for 'free' Windows 10. In addition, they are deploying the same things to Windows 7 & 8.x. It's time to deploy countermeasures!
I would love to know which file(s) do the keylogger thing which is what freaks me out the most...them capturing my online banking passwords.
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Just had an idea 
They want some telemetry, why not give them some ?
What a bout a flood generator sending random data
Patrice
“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.” Albert Einstein
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That is a really cool idea! 
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Excellent you should start getting advertisements shortly and they'll track you to make sure you're making the best use of your new OS and well they might give it to a few other people but they're responsible right, they wouldn't give it to anybody you wouldn't right?
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch!
New version: WinHeist Version You didn't fall from the stupid tree you got dragged through the whole dumbass forest.
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Time for counter-measures as Dave suggests above? 
How do we preserve the wisdom men will need,
when their violent passions are spent?
- The Lost Horizon
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