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what do you do for 6 hours, rewrite his website?
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start
Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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Hang yourself after about ten minutes, I think...
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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OriginalGriff wrote: I know one guy who specializes in 4 or 6 hour interviews.
Sounds like a guy trying to avoid doing his actual job. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Managing Director, and a total control freak. Still pays employees by cheque (as far as a I know) because that way he can decide if he likes them enough to actually pay them that month.
He did / does that with everyone: from the-pack-and-dispatch guy to the sales manager. I managed to avoid it by giving him no choice but to hire me ... and then create a department for me to "be in" afterwards! 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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OriginalGriff wrote: I know one guy who specializes in 4 or 6 hour interviews.
Is he arrogant, ignorant or both?
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Worse: he spent a year working for Metal Box[^] as an "engineer" before accepting a position in the family firm, and rising rapidly - a promotion a week - so he knows everything technical.
In his mind, anyway.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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I had an interview lasted 2 hours, then on the way out was asked to do one of those Psychotic tests, or whatever they're called.
I was about to refuse (they told me it would take between 30 mins and an hour) but they said no test, no job, so I thought waht the heck!
As it was gone 5pm they then buggered off, leaving me in the room to do the test & told me to put the paper on reception on my way out (there was a button to unlock the door) so I was left in this little room behind reception, alone in the building, to do a Psych test!
Fortunately for me, I was totally pissed off at this point, so I ran through the multiple choice questions (they were questions like:
You are at a party when someone spills a drink down your new suit; how do you react?
a) Punch them in the face
b) Apologise to them
c) such the drink out of the cloth
d) Laugh
Stupid bloody questions, this type - I mean, who was it? was it deliberate? am I drunk? was it a cheap suit? had he just shagged my wife in the toilets? Move information needed.
So. I answered them entirely randomly on the answer sheet, finished in all fo three minutes, hung around to make sure the interviewer had time to get out the car park, and buggered off.
The agent phoned me a few days later (they sent the tests out to a company that rips people off about this sort of thing) and told me I had got the best results they'd ever had!
Got the job.
It was crap (they used vi to edit Cobol, in the mid-1990's!)
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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I know, but what's worse is that they spent all that time and still couldn't ask a worthy technical question or may be the candidate just took too long to allow them to move on from the lowest of the low questions to more sensible stuff. I still have little to no respect for these stock questions, just because the candidate says Computer Science on their profile doesn't give you a license to ask these ridiculous questions, unless the candidate doesn't have any commercial experience. IMO these ridiculous "technical" questions should be a last ditch resort after the candidate has failed to show enthusiasm, soft skills, side projects.
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I.explore.code wrote: I still have little to no respect for these stock questions
I agree. I've found the best way to interview anyone is to let them tell me what they've done. It's very clear that way if they know what they're doing.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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For my last two positions, they were phone interviews. The first was for a position working with FORTRAN and FMS (forms application) on VAX/VMS. I knew the platform and supporting tools, but I was also personable enough to be able to talk to the interviewers and present myself as a good candidate.
The interview lasted 2 hours.
The next position (current one) was for a niche market product that I had used for 20 years. Again, I knew the product and I could hold my own technically and personally. That interview lasted an hour.
For people I've interviewed, I've learned to listen for key phrases: if everything is "we've done this" or "our group did that", the person isn't presenting themselves or their work - they are representing what was done by others.
Whether someone can solve a particular problem as a junior should not be as important as do they understand concepts, are they willing to learn, are they willing to be mentored.
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FORTRAN and FMS? Brings back memories.
FYI: I love legacy code.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I.explore.code wrote: the guy was no good because he couldn't solve a string reversal problem.
I don't interview with companies that perform these kind of interviews. Ever.
I have walked out during an interview. It happens.
You guys really need to have a sound interview process in place, and at least (2) well trained individuals to perform the initial interview process (screening).
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I am going to do that too if they ever ask me these kinds of questions. No doubt!
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And, if enough people did that, they'd change their evil interviewing ways.
I had an interview last year. I stopped the interviewer at the first question, told him never mind, and left.
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A good interview:
0) Debugging questions need to be asked. A good programmer should be able to jump into unfamiliar code and fix it with relative ease. I've never been asked to fix a problem.
1) Present the programmer with a design challenge within your own code base where a solution was recently implemented, and ask for as many possible solutions as he can think of, and discuss the pros/cons of each approach.
2) Avoid pointless brain teaser questions.
3) Ask to see some of the candidates personal code (projects he works on in his own time). He should already preseume this will be asked and bring his own laptop.
All of these things can illustrate his communications ability, problem solving skills, and general coding skills. You can pretty much tell how he will fit in when you start critiquing his code. 
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Agreed on all but:
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: bring his own laptop
I don't have a laptop , I know I'm weird but I still prefer a desktop way over a laptop
Tom
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The only reason I have a laptop is for interviews. I would go so far as to say that it's an essential tool of any programmer.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Well I do have a laptop from work, but I never use it outside off work.
And I have like 3 or 4 old one's at home but I'm pretty sure none of them are still booting let alone run VS.
I haven't needed a personal laptop in a while, and as long as I don't need it I'm not going to buy it
Tom
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Excellent answer.
I routinely offer to send/show my personal projects, for the very reason you mentioned. It lets them know how I think and code, and moreover, it tells them that I can analyze problems and design complete solutions - not just write code.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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Yes it is a good idea. I developed my own person website back around 2000 and used it for the next 10 years to market myself. I got one job in 2004 because I created tabs on a page and also had a portfolio page.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Ask to see some of the candidates personal code (projects he works on in his own time).
I work for a living and have always done so.
The last time I did code for myself I had never been paid to program.
Since then the code I throw has always belonged to someone else.
Which mean I have absolutely no right to show it to anyone else.
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I have also always worked for a living, but I spend a lot of time writing my own stuff. Occasionally, I develop some code for an employer and after getting permission, write an article about the techniques I developed in pursuit of the final code. I've found that most employers are fine with technology sharing unless the code in question is highly proprietary (exposes trade secrets, or is so unique and innovative as to expose the company to competitive loss).
I am honestly amazed at the number of programmers I've personally encountered that DON'T write code as a hobby at home. IMHO, it shows a lack of commitment to the art of development, but I also understand the necessity to separate private life from vocational pursuits. I'll always be more interested in hiring people that have a demonstrable passion for the act of writing code.
For my current job, I was interviewed by a PM who had no idea what to ask. No programming questions at all, just explanations of the code I worked on in the past. It was kind of a strange interview.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I've personally encountered that DON'T write code as a hobby at home. IMHO, it shows a lack of commitment to the art of development,
For about 20 years I worked 60+ hour weeks and, where possible, would take vacation time as a bonus check rather than taking actual time off.
I know people who have worked more hours a week than that. For years.
My "hobby" was in fact writing code, but doing so for my employer.
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I had that sort of interview for my first job out of school. About 50 programming questions and an hour to do them, it reminded me of a test in Comp Sci 101. Breezed through those and then had a short face to face interview with the team manager. The guy had been a DBA back when he started so had an idea of what questions to ask and what the reason and concept was behind the answer he wanted. They could have skipped the entire first bit and just go with the interview. Would have saved everyone's time. I can teach someone the syntax of a language. I cannot teach someone how to approach a problem or think for themselves.
After a number of years in, I tend to be able to get a better feel for someone's ability by asking questions about how they would approach a problem instead of what is the solution for that same problem. If your solution is overly complex, your code tends to be as well and will be a beast to maintain once you are gone. If you won't even attempt to solve think about it then you will be here on CodeProject and other various boards asking people how to do your work.
In my mind, how a developer thinks and learns is much more important than what they already claim to know.
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