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JimmyRopes wrote: It is a negotiation until you sign.
That's actually not true.
The only reason you sign a contract is so that it is undeniable that you were aware of its contents; As soon as you have seen it you are bound by it unless you can show that negotiations are taking place.
If you don't sign, but continue to work / get paid, then you are deemed to have agreed to the contract - unless you can show that it is still being negotiated.
Of course, making modifications and then signing and returning to the employer puts the same conditions on them.
In the real world, as opposed to a lawyers office, it's far easier just to ask the company to make the change / explain in writing!
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_Maxxx_ wrote: That's actually not true.
Yes it is. I do not remember any contract for consulting work as an independent contractor that I signed without first making changes to it.
_Maxxx_ wrote: If you don't sign, but continue to work / get paid, then you are deemed to have agreed to the contract
I never work without a contract.  That goes without saying.
Anyone who provides professional services without having a contract is not being professional.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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It makes no difference what you remember - any agreement between two people, whether verbally, in writing or dripped in morse code in blood, is enforceable as a contractual agreement; the reason for signatures is merely obtaining proof that both parties have the same understanding.
JimmyRopes wrote: I never work without a contract.  That goes without saying.
In the real world it certainly does not go without saying - as lots and lots of people do work without written contracts.
JimmyRopes wrote: Anyone who provides professional services without having a contract is not being professional.
Sure - and when it's your first week on the job, with a big organisation, and you're new (maybe even your first job outside of the chip shop) you just march into HR and refuse to work until they've provided you with a contract in writing to which you agree? Sure.
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_Maxxx_ wrote: It makes no difference what you remember - any agreement between two people, whether verbally, in writing or dripped in morse code in blood, is enforceable as a contractual agreement; the reason for signatures is merely obtaining proof that both parties have the same understanding.
Bollocks.
_Maxxx_ wrote: In the real world it certainly does not go without saying - as lots and lots of people do work without written contracts.
Maybe at the chip shop but not consulting work.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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JimmyRopes wrote: Bollocks.
One example[^]
Another one[^]
Another (word document)[^]
Quote: An employment contract (also called a “contract of employment” or a “contract of service”) is a legal agreement between you and your employer. It contains the terms and conditions that you have agreed will apply to your employment relationship. Examples of common terms in an employment contract are: how much you will be paid, your ordinary hours of work, whether you will receive overtime pay (and at what rate), and the notice you must give your employer if you want to resign from your job.
The terms and conditions of an employment contract can be agreed:
• in a written document (sometimes even if it is not signed);
• in a verbal discussion;
• by the actions or behaviour of both you and your employer;
or by any combination of these.
So - not bollocks at all, but fact. Sorry - you may choose to believe a contract must be in writing and must be signed, but it is just simply not true.
JimmyRopes wrote: Maybe at the chip shop but not consulting work.
Generally someone who is self-employed or working on a contract basis through some agency will have a written contract because they want to protect themselves. I believe the OP was talking about a contract of employment. Every employee has an effective contract of employment, but it is not necessarily oin the form of a written contract signed by the employee and the company representative; Just working somewhere and accepting payment makes the existing terms part of the contract of employment - and m=by doing the work and accepting payment, you can be deemed to have agreed to them, unless you can prove that you are negotiating (or, at the very least, prove you disagree and are attempting to reach agreement)
I personally think you would be crazy to start contract employment somewhere without a written agreement - as it is very hard to get someone to pay your invoice when you haven't formally agreed on rates.
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See how a verbal agreement works out for you when someone refuses to pay until you complete their understanding of what is contracted.
I want it in writing.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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I've never said it was a good thing, or recommended not having a written contract. I merely pointed out that (addressing the OPs question and comments about signing the contract) just failing to sign a contract is insufficient
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I think that you are confusing starting to work without having signed the contract (but "seeing" it) with not starting at all.
If you never started to work and there's a contract saying something, it doesn't matter. You are not forced to work because you read a contract. That contract doesn't force you to do anything except, maybe, from deciding if you accept it or not.
So, look the first message: "I'm about to start new work."
That is, while the situation is still in "about to start" and no contract signed, it is in negotiation. The negotiation can very well end-up in nothing if they never agree.
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Paulo Zemek wrote: That is, while the situation is still in "about to start" and no contract signed, it is in negotiation. The negotiation can very well end-up in nothing if they never agree.
I'm not confused at all.
Jimmy said "don't sign it" and I pointed out that whether he signs it or not, the clause will be in effect if he accepts the job and starts working. While the signature can be used to prove he read and agreed with the contract, simply not signing it means nothing if the OP actually starts work - because at that point, unless he can show he was negotiating some points, he could be deemed to have accepted the contract.
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I actually read this from Jimmy's post:
Change the contract to exclude work not pertaining to the company or industry the company is in.
A lot of people do not know that you can alter the contract before signing. It is a negotiation until you sign.
So, as far as I understand, he never said that you can start working without signing and you are still able to negotiate. He is simply pointing out that, as long as you don't sign and don't start working, you are negotiating.
I can see that he didn't said it directly, but it seems implicit that if we should only sign when (and if) terms are OK, it also means that we should not start before signing. It's like:
Don't sign if the contract isn't OK.
Don't start working if you don't have a signed contract.
Having those assumed, saying:
"You can negotiate until the contract is signed" is perfectly correct.
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Well, at one point I said
Quote: any agreement between two people, whether verbally, in writing or dripped in morse code in blood, is enforceable as a contractual agreement; the reason for signatures is merely obtaining proof that both parties have the same understanding.
And Jimmy said Quote: bollocks
So any misunderstanding about whether his earlier posts meant "don't sign and don't start" or just "don't sign" are rather moot?
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_Maxxx_ wrote: So any misunderstanding about whether his earlier posts meant "don't sign and don't start" or just "don't sign and don't start" are rather moot?
FTFY
I'm sure what you learned in business school was the letter of the law.
If you want to make some liar lawyer a good amount of money then make oral agreements for the work you do.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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JimmyRopes wrote: I'm sure what you learned in business school was the letter of the law.
Sorry - I didn't know that's what "bollocks" meant!
JimmyRopes wrote: If you want to make some liar lawyer a good amount of money then make oral agreements for the work you do.
I wouldn't dream of starting employment without a contract that I agreed with and had signed, and had counter signed by a company representative.
You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist because you made an inaccurate statement Quote: It is a negotiation until you sign.
that I pointed out. that statement was incorrect or, at the very least, incomplete.
Get over it.
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Said like a true liar lawyer.
_Maxxx_ wrote: You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist because you made an inaccurate statement Quote: It is a negotiation until you sign.
that I pointed out. that statement was incorrect or, at the very least, incomplete.
No my knickers are not in a twist. Maybe I did leave it as an incomplete statement and yes there are liars lawyers that can argue the letter of the law, at a hefty fee.
All I was trying to say is that he should not sign a contract that include clauses that are not in his best interest.
I would in no way encourage him to start work without signing a contract. Until he does it is still a negotiation provided he does not start a working relationship with the other party.
<editorial comment>
Emphasis added to clarify my intent for those who need clarification before doing something that can come back to bite them in the ass.
</editorial comment>
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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I ran into the same situation when I was a practicing engineer. Before I/we signed the contract I just added a phrase to confine the scope of the agreement to any work developed during my employment and related to the scope of my engineering activities on this project. and had the HR manager and I both sign it. Legal details notwithstanding, I assumed that would sufficiently muddy the waters to keep them from going after anything I developed that they were not paying for.
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I have found that reasonable requests for changes were accommodated without much discussion.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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If you ask or demand the contract be modified, you run the risk of losing the gig or being labeled a trouble maker.
I would have a casual discussion with the person in charge. And then follow up with an email saying, "Just to clarify my understanding of what we talked about this morning, I retain rights to the side project I'm working on in my spare time....Correct?"
Print and keep the email.
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I already talk about that before over the phone ...
In fact the PM just emailed me he was sorry and going to fix it soon!
So here we go, fingers crossed! 
(making only reasonable demand so far...)
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Super Lloyd wrote: making only reasonable demand so far...
As long as your demands are reasonable they will respect you for making them.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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Steve Wellens wrote: If you ask or demand the contract be modified, you run the risk of losing the gig or being labeled a trouble maker.
There is no shame in asking for a contract that is equitable for all parties involved.
It is called "business acumen".
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
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Steve Wellens wrote: ou run the risk of losing the gig or being labeled a trouble maker
Wow I have never heard of anyone losing a gig for negotiating a contract, I would consider it a basic precept to contracting that you understand and agree with the content of the contract. I regularly ask for changes to a contract if I am not comfortable with the terms.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Mycroft Holmes wrote: I have never heard of anyone losing a gig for negotiating a contract,
I was once asked to sign a thick contract that included the stipulation that I was familiar with the Foreign Corrupt Policies act. I told them I wasn't familiar with that act and it should be removed...I couldn't sign it. They agreed and promised to remove it. They encouraged me to give notice at my current job.
They sent me a new contract but there were no changes! So I never took the gig.
I did take the contract and show it to my current boss and negotiated a higher rate for myself!
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Steve Wellens wrote: I did take the contract and show it to my current boss and negotiated a higher rate for myself!
Always a good option!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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I was once asked to sign a contract that had 5 "phases" in it, obviously one bigger and more complex than the other. Verbally, I should only work on phase 1 and 2 and if everything was OK we will negotiate for the other phases.
Yet the contract still showed me the 5 phases as an all or nothing situation. The only negotiation possible by the contract were the delivery times of the next phases.
I asked them to change the contract. They did change the words in the contract, but all the problems were there. I said that I couldn't sign the contract and the guy told me that a contract is only a formality, that I shouldn't care about what it says.
So I said that if it is a formality, we don't sign the contract at all. He could pay me and I will do the job.
He didn't accept that, but he insisted that I should sign the contract. He said that he needed the contract to be signed that day, that I should sign it to avoid losing the chance of doing that job and later they would fix the details.
Well, I lost the chance of working on that "amazing" contract.
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Paulo Zemek wrote: told me that a contract is only a formality
I was told exactly that about a contract similar to the OP's (i.e. they owned by soul for the duration of my employment)
I suggested that, as it was only a formality, then simply removing that clause wouldn't make any difference.
Their lawyer told them not to take it out, as others had signed it and they didn't want to have different sets of contracts (or some such rubbish) - so eventually the MD wrote me a letter confirming that any work I did on non-competitive products, outside of office hours, using my own equipment, while not on the company premises etc. etc. would not be claimed by the company.
The copy of the contract I signed had a note hand-written and dated referring to the letter!
Sometimes it's just too hard! (although it was a great job!)
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