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I assumed the "rabbit hole" comment was at my expense. Maybe not... 
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I assumed the "rabbit hole" comment was at my expense
Totally not at your expense. More about actually seeing how, erm, "interesting" some of the GUI design decisions are.
Alberto Brandolini: The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Had to be the interface... couldn't be your ignorance of it. 
It was specifically his ignorance of it that he was complaining about. There is an expected learning curve when using new systems, but some things are typically left to convention. (you learn about that in UX classes). So the complaint was that some basic things that are the same across os's are different here. The only time you can really get away with changing things that are considered normal by convention, are if they are are intuitive. And by intuitive I mean that you could figure it out without an explanation from a skilled user.
It would be like a terminal that you couldn't get out of by typing "Exit" . (I've ran into one of these somewhere, but can't remember where. Some database terminal). It's just annoying, even if the normal users know and remember it.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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One of the most basic conventions of today's OS GUI's is "drag and drop". Yet he seemingly refused to use it in favor of keyboard shortcuts[^] where no such convention exists.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Mike Mullikin wrote: One of the most basic conventions of today's OS GUI's is "<layer>drag and drop"
Who says that ?
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.
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Rage wrote: Who says that ?
Reality says that.
Are you suggesting that any remotely popular OS GUI in the last 20 years doesn't support "drag and drop"?
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Mike Mullikin wrote: One of the most basic conventions of today's OS GUI's is "drag and drop"
I can agree with that.
However, it's also very standard in graphical environments to use ctrl+c and ctrl+v for copy and paste. It's not just os specific, it's followed by many programs (which is what makes in convention).
Also, reading your post made me realize something else. Using shortcuts is probably considered advanced for users. So, though it may be annoying to users, I don't think my previous argument really holds true. I think it's generally expected to find the proper uses on advanced topics if you expect to use them. Much like installing some add ons in visual studio (or compiz in linux , for instance) will nerf up all your keyboard shortcuts. It's then my responsibility, as an advanced user, to read the docs and remember accordingly.
So, I think I'm retracting my argument. I don't think it's relevant here. A basic intuitive environment does, as you pointed out, mean drag and drop.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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loctrice wrote: However, it's also very standard in graphical environments to use ctrl+c and ctrl+v for copy and paste. It's not just os specific, it's followed by many programs (which is what makes in convention).
Don't forget that this "cntrl+c, cntrl+v" of which you speak is only standard because the Windows and Unix keyboards didn't have the "command" symbol on it and so replaced the "original" command+ short-cuts with "control+" shortcuts when they copied the "original" apple shortcuts...
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Billy-T wrote: is only standard because -snip-....
After it becomes a standard, the reasoning is seldom important.
Billy-T wrote: they copied the "original"
I'm just goina dance around that.
All I was trying to say is that when you make a program, standards should be considered. You can see that later in the thread I reversed my position on this particular situation. (if you read the thread).
This [^] is a nice example of how things, IMO , should be done (check the copy command for each OS). No way to keep to a convention because there is no clear convention. So, rather than just make something up and force users to learn something new, they compromised well.
I understand this doesn't apply here, which is what I realized in another place in the thread.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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Wrong. The original Xerox PARC GUI, which every OS we know today copied, including MacOS, used the "control +" shortcuts. Only Apple decided to break with that convention, which makes them (and you) wrong.
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So IBM and Microsoft get to define keyboard conventions for Apple? How odd that you would believe that...
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Of course Apple has it's own conventions.
The OP was complaining that the Windows keystrokes he was familiar with did not work on a Mac. I merely asked why he didn't use drag and drop to copy (or move) the files instead of keystrokes that could vary from one OS to the next.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Mac has both, and had drag and drop before Linux had a graphical UI I think...
But Command-Option-V, or Windows-Key-Option-V I think is he's talking about a Windows keyboard.
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loctrice wrote: So the complaint was that some basic things that are the same across os's are different here.
But that's really not fair since many of these conventions predate Windows...
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Careful, your apple is showing.
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Just as long as I don't show my core feelings...
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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Thanks for your help - I'll try this out next time I use their machines. There is, as I've said in other posts - a certain amount of who moved my cheese?
_Maxxx_ wrote: or perhaps you can
I totally can 
Alberto Brandolini: The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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So far I've only used two apple devices.
The first one shredders them into tiny pieces.
The second one presses all the juice out of those tiny pieces.
By mid October I will very likely do that again and make some nice cider.
Cheers!
"I had the right to remain silent, but I didn't have the ability!"
Ron White, Comedian
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Apfelsaft !
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.
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Apfelschorle plus apfelkorn
Alberto Brandolini: The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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Keith Barrow wrote: Apfelschorle plus apfelkorn
Pfui! 
"I had the right to remain silent, but I didn't have the ability!"
Ron White, Comedian
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Rage wrote: Apfelsaft !
That is only the beginning, after myself and the yeast are done with it it'll be transformed into cidre.
Cheers!
"I had the right to remain silent, but I didn't have the ability!"
Ron White, Comedian
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Yeah, a lot of times it seems like they do stuff just trying to be different.... but hey, the terminal commands should all be just about the same as any Linux (slightly different there too, but hey, at least you have man or --help).
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