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Nemanja Trifunovic11-Jul-14 3:16

11-Jul-14 3:16

OK, I'll bite: was it a foreigner or a lunatic who led French into victory against combined forces of Prussia and the Holy Roman Empire at Valmy 1792?

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chriselst11-Jul-14 3:30

chriselst

11-Jul-14 3:30

Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
was it a foreigner or a lunatic who led French into victory against combined forces of Prussia and the Holy Roman Empire at Valmy 1792

According to Wikipedia there were two of them, one was German and the other was a Walloon.

Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.

Bergholt Stuttley Johnson11-Jul-14 3:33

11-Jul-14 3:33

I missed the fact that we wasn't a Frenchman

You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start

Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.

Nemanja Trifunovic11-Jul-14 3:44

11-Jul-14 3:44

François Christophe de Kellermann was French, although his family was of Saxon descent.

Charles-François du Périer Dumouriez was French both by birth and descent. He grew up in Belgium, that much is true.

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Bergholt Stuttley Johnson11-Jul-14 3:52

11-Jul-14 3:52

they why did HE consider himself a Walloon?

You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start

Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.

chriselst11-Jul-14 3:52

chriselst

11-Jul-14 3:52

Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
François Christophe de Kellermann was French,

Both his parents were German, he'd have played for Germany in the World Cup.

Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
Charles-François du Périer Dumouriez was French both by birth and descent

He didn't consider himself French, merely French speaker.

Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.

Bergholt Stuttley Johnson11-Jul-14 3:31

11-Jul-14 3:31

That's a victory?

the French invade Belgium get driven back and the fight a battle that ends in stalemate then claim victory when the opposing General decides that the victory would not be worth the loss of lives

and according to some was bribed with the crown jewels to stop his advance

only a Frenchman could claim that as a victory

You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start

Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.

modified 11-Jul-14 9:39am.

Nemanja Trifunovic11-Jul-14 3:40

11-Jul-14 3:40

Yep - a victory and a pretty good one. An army of freshly recruited citizen soldiers doesn't move a foot under a cannonade of Prussian professionals and make them lose heart and leave even there are really no troops to speak of between them and Paris at the moment.

[EDIT] Here it is mentioned as one of the fifteen decisive battles of the world: http://www.standin.se/fifteen14a.htm[^]

"Goethe's description of the cannonade has been quoted. His observation to his comrades, and the camp of the allies at the end of the battle, deserves quotation also. It shows that the poet felt (and probably he alone, of the thousands there assembled, felt) the full importance of that day. He describes the consternation and the change of demeanor which he observed among his Prussian friends that evening. He tells us that " most of them were silent, and, in fact, the power of reflection and judgment was wanting to all. At last I was called upon to say what I thought of the engagement, for I had been in the habit of enlivening and amusing the troop with short sayings. This time I said, ' From this place and from this day forth commences a new era in the world's history, and you can all say that you were present at its birth.' "

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modified 11-Jul-14 9:52am.

Bergholt Stuttley Johnson11-Jul-14 3:49

11-Jul-14 3:49

citizen soldiers? well yes there was a few but were heavily outnumbered by professional French troops (including the finest artillery troops of the time)

well hold onto your little victories

You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start

Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.

Bergholt Stuttley Johnson11-Jul-14 4:14

11-Jul-14 4:14

as I said only a Frenchman could say this was a victory,
1/ the French invaded Belgium - did they keep any ground NO so that's not a victory
2/ the Allied force suffered fewer casualties so no victory if you use the stupid body count method
3/ the allied force withdrew without hindrance by the French (not usually a sign of defeat)

so best you could say would be stalemate, it would only be a victory if the Allied force was French (it did have a sizable French component)

From I have read it is claimed as a victory on the assumption that the Allied force was there to topple the revolutionary government, yet I understood that the Allied force was raised to resist the French invasion of Belgium, something it did, so you could say that it was the victor, the fact they carried on into France was not an original directive

You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start

Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.

Mark_Wallace11-Jul-14 3:08

Mark_Wallace

11-Jul-14 3:08

Look, here in the Lounge, we prefer not to let facts get in the way of our opinions.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

Nemanja Trifunovic11-Jul-14 3:17

11-Jul-14 3:17

Mark_Wallace wrote:
we prefer not to let facts get in the way of our opinions.

And that's a position I completely understand and support Smile | :)

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jschell11-Jul-14 9:30

jschell

11-Jul-14 9:30

Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
but it really has little support in historical facts....
Finally, let me recommend a serious place for people interested in history

Not sure how the first ties to the second.

I went to the site and poked a couple of the latest questions and the specific sub-section and I wasn't really impressed with either.

A historian of course should be aware that, since history is human based, there will always be outliers. One can answer a question that requires a comparison by citing examples that could be outliers. Not unless one can demonstrate that they are not outliers.

To be specific to answer the question about whether france surrenders or not one must compare different countries and do so for different time periods, and in particular this must include the 20th century.

And to note myself I doubt that france does in fact surrender all that much in comparison to other countries and especially if one attempts to compare to equivalent situations. But my opinion on the subject is far different than making the statement that it just isn't true.

harold aptroot11-Jul-14 1:51

harold aptroot

11-Jul-14 1:51

TL;DR

Nagy Vilmos11-Jul-14 2:11

Nagy Vilmos

11-Jul-14 2:11

Executive Summary
France and Italy won some stuff.
Austria are shyte.

loctrice11-Jul-14 9:05

loctrice

11-Jul-14 9:05

I didn't read the link yet, and I already love everything about this post. Well done.

Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine

Any IT consultant here ?

AndyInUK10-Jul-14 23:58

AndyInUK

10-Jul-14 23:58

Hi,

I am planning a switch from software development to IT consultant role once my MBA is finished. I still have 2 years to go and in a position where I need to select my electives for 3rd sem. I am now starting to do research, what all options are there for software developer to move into consulting. Will it be a difficult move and what all challenges I need to face and what electives will be useful. Any IT consultant here who can give bit of advise on this?

Thanks

Pete O'Hanlon11-Jul-14 0:39

Pete O'Hanlon

11-Jul-14 0:39

How can you be a consultant if you haven't got any practical experience? To be a consultant you really should have a background of problems solved - without that, as a consultant, you're just a warm body occupying a seat.

Simon Lee Shugar11-Jul-14 0:52

Simon Lee Shugar

11-Jul-14 0:52

Indeed consultancy should be based on experience with previous projects.

Simon Lee Shugar (Software Developer)
www.simonshugar.co.uk

"If something goes by a false name, would it mean that thing is fake? False by nature?" By Gilbert Durandil

Rage11-Jul-14 0:52

Rage

11-Jul-14 0:52

Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
a warm body occupying a seat

This must be the very definition of 90% of consultants-

~RaGE();

I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.

OriginalGriff11-Jul-14 0:54

OriginalGriff

11-Jul-14 0:54

I dunno: if they are sitting down you can find the buggers - and then the lack of useful knowledge is exposed...

Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)

Nagy Vilmos11-Jul-14 1:12

Nagy Vilmos

11-Jul-14 1:12

No mate, a consultant is a person who borrows your watch to tell you the time.

Vivi Chellappa11-Jul-14 9:31

Vivi Chellappa

11-Jul-14 9:31

And then keeps your watch as his fee!

ZurdoDev11-Jul-14 1:12

ZurdoDev

11-Jul-14 1:12

Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
How can you be a consultant if you haven't got any practical experience?

I always thought the term consultant meant unemployed.

I don't know about other countries but in the US that term is so generic it doesn't actually mean anything, at least in my experience.

There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.