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Nagy Vilmos wrote: This does not change my opinion that the French are garlic eating surrender monkeys.
As Napoleon himself once said, "Our ridiculous national fault is that the greatest enemy of our success and glory is ourselves."
-- Clarke, Stephen: 1000 Years of Annoying the French
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Sorry, you seem to be under the misapprehension that I care. 
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Never let the facts get in the way of a good bit of sledging
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: As for the French, the joke is only funny because it keeps annoying the French, but it really has little support in historical facts.
Annoying the cheese eating surrender monkeys French is far more important than little things like "facts".
As a great man once said, facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true. Facts, schmacts.[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Oh dear - looks like I've pissed off a couple of Frenchies who either don't have a sense of humour, or missed the "joke" icon.
Two "spam or abusive message" reports so far. 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Not me, I voted it up!
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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Next I suppose you'll be trying to insist that this[^] isn't a wholely accurate account of the last 2+ millennia of French Military HistoryDefeats.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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I did read that the French only win when led by either a Foreigner or a lunatic
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start
Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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OK, I'll bite: was it a foreigner or a lunatic who led French into victory against combined forces of Prussia and the Holy Roman Empire at Valmy 1792?
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: was it a foreigner or a lunatic who led French into victory against combined forces of Prussia and the Holy Roman Empire at Valmy 1792
According to Wikipedia there were two of them, one was German and the other was a Walloon.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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I missed the fact that we wasn't a Frenchman
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start
Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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François Christophe de Kellermann was French, although his family was of Saxon descent.
Charles-François du Périer Dumouriez was French both by birth and descent. He grew up in Belgium, that much is true.
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they why did HE consider himself a Walloon?
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start
Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: François Christophe de Kellermann was French,
Both his parents were German, he'd have played for Germany in the World Cup.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Charles-François du Périer Dumouriez was French both by birth and descent
He didn't consider himself French, merely French speaker.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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That's a victory?
the French invade Belgium get driven back and the fight a battle that ends in stalemate then claim victory when the opposing General decides that the victory would not be worth the loss of lives
and according to some was bribed with the crown jewels to stop his advance
only a Frenchman could claim that as a victory
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start
Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
modified 11-Jul-14 9:39am.
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Yep - a victory and a pretty good one. An army of freshly recruited citizen soldiers doesn't move a foot under a cannonade of Prussian professionals and make them lose heart and leave even there are really no troops to speak of between them and Paris at the moment.
[EDIT] Here it is mentioned as one of the fifteen decisive battles of the world: http://www.standin.se/fifteen14a.htm[^]
"Goethe's description of the cannonade has been quoted. His observation to his comrades, and the camp of the allies at the end of the battle, deserves quotation also. It shows that the poet felt (and probably he alone, of the thousands there assembled, felt) the full importance of that day. He describes the consternation and the change of demeanor which he observed among his Prussian friends that evening. He tells us that " most of them were silent, and, in fact, the power of reflection and judgment was wanting to all. At last I was called upon to say what I thought of the engagement, for I had been in the habit of enlivening and amusing the troop with short sayings. This time I said, ' From this place and from this day forth commences a new era in the world's history, and you can all say that you were present at its birth.' "
modified 11-Jul-14 9:52am.
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citizen soldiers? well yes there was a few but were heavily outnumbered by professional French troops (including the finest artillery troops of the time)
well hold onto your little victories
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start
Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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as I said only a Frenchman could say this was a victory,
1/ the French invaded Belgium - did they keep any ground NO so that's not a victory
2/ the Allied force suffered fewer casualties so no victory if you use the stupid body count method
3/ the allied force withdrew without hindrance by the French (not usually a sign of defeat)
so best you could say would be stalemate, it would only be a victory if the Allied force was French (it did have a sizable French component)
From I have read it is claimed as a victory on the assumption that the Allied force was there to topple the revolutionary government, yet I understood that the Allied force was raised to resist the French invasion of Belgium, something it did, so you could say that it was the victor, the fact they carried on into France was not an original directive
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start
Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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Look, here in the Lounge, we prefer not to let facts get in the way of our opinions.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: we prefer not to let facts get in the way of our opinions.
And that's a position I completely understand and support 
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: but it really has little support in historical facts....
Finally, let me recommend a serious place for people interested in history
Not sure how the first ties to the second.
I went to the site and poked a couple of the latest questions and the specific sub-section and I wasn't really impressed with either.
A historian of course should be aware that, since history is human based, there will always be outliers. One can answer a question that requires a comparison by citing examples that could be outliers. Not unless one can demonstrate that they are not outliers.
To be specific to answer the question about whether france surrenders or not one must compare different countries and do so for different time periods, and in particular this must include the 20th century.
And to note myself I doubt that france does in fact surrender all that much in comparison to other countries and especially if one attempts to compare to equivalent situations. But my opinion on the subject is far different than making the statement that it just isn't true.
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Executive Summary
France and Italy won some stuff.
Austria are shyte.
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I didn't read the link yet, and I already love everything about this post. Well done.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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