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First of all, it's good to see you use the correct numbering system. You really have adapted to life in the lounge.
However, most males will joke about the "loss of freedom" from marriage, but it's a mistake to think that we actually mean it. We joke about a lot of things that we don't mean. It's just part of that Men from Mars thing that women will never truly understand. It's also the same reason that girls who give other girls nicknames will use names like "Happy Samantha" or "Wannabe Bride" (both people I know). Blokes, of course, are more likely to choose nicknames like "Fat Baz" or other names that I really can't use on a KSS forum.
A lot of the regular posters here seem to be happily married, and we genuinely do wish a long and happy marriage to others - even while we joke about it.
I'm normally a great believer in equality but, in this case, this is the real difference. Women will never understand men. Ever. Don't worry about it though, because while we are fascinated and beguiled by women, we haven't got the foggiest about you either. And this is a good thing. This is why we don't pick up on subtle mood swings.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote: You really have adapted to life in the lounge.
thanks. 
Pete O'Hanlon wrote: Women will never understand men. Ever.
The reason why I ask.
Not that I didn't get the jokes or I took the thread seriously (as to what others pertain), I just ask you all because I know you're the only one who can answer those. And thanks for the response.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote: we haven't got the foggiest about you either
That's fine. Even me, there are times I can't understand some women either. 
Don't mind those people who say you're not HOT. At least you know you're COOL.
I'm not afraid of falling, I'm afraid of the sudden stop at the end of the fall! - Richard Andrew x64
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0. Not afraid, that's just a joke.
1. Don't like is not really the correct wording. Let's say that love and hate are surprisingly close to one another if you're married for a longer period of time  .
2. Various things. See 1. but also how to keep doing the manly things we used to do before marriage. One thing women do more often then men, is trying to change the opposite sex...
you are a mystery to us as we are a mystery to you... 
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0. If you're not afraid you're not taking it seriously. It's a big change, you're promising someone she's the only one for the rest of your life. At least I'm taking that seriously.
1. Nagging. I mean, If I say I will do something, I will. No point in reminding me every half a year. Sorry couldn't resist
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I got used to naggers, too. I think my mom inherited a machine-gun-mouth from her ancestors. She always use it whenever possible.
Don't mind those people who say you're not HOT. At least you know you're COOL.
I'm not afraid of falling, I'm afraid of the sudden stop at the end of the fall! - Richard Andrew x64
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0. Because we actually are.
1. Nothing. However we also like other people's wives.
2. Surviving.
-- Carlo The Honest
Veni, vidi, vici.
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CPallini wrote: However we also like other people's wives.
Don't mind those people who say you're not HOT. At least you know you're COOL.
I'm not afraid of falling, I'm afraid of the sudden stop at the end of the fall! - Richard Andrew x64
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CPallini wrote: 1. Nothing. However we also like other people's wives.
And divorcees. 
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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Veni, vidi, vici.
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It's just tired old stereotypes that people fall back on when they can't think of anything original.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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Ok, read this whole thread before replying.
0. Some men (and women) and afraid to get married because they have witnessed bad marriages. My wife was 32 when we married; she was VERY cautious because her mother had two bad marriages and she wanted to be sure her's would be fulfilling and last.
1. It is not so much that men don't 'like' their wives, they don't understand them. I can say something to my wife and hear back, "Oh, you mean....". I reply, "That's not what I said..." and repeat my words exactly. Her next reply, "You said EXACTLY this..." and I hear something 90 degrees off of what I said. She heard my words, but interpretting them in a manner I did not mean, but, to her, that is exactly what I said. Then, I go out and chop firewood... stress relief.
2. A survival guide is like seasoned advice. Last night, I was talking to a friend whose wife had a baby 3 weeks ago. She wants to take a week and visit family out of state. His thoughts, "Go, but leave me here. I don't want to go." What she will hear, "I don't like your family and can't be bothered to spend time with them; it is more important to me to avoid them than it is to spend time with you." My advice, tell her how many vacation days you have left this year (5 I think) and ask when she would like him to take them. If he goes out of town, then he will have no time left for the rest of the year - no Thanksgiving time off, no Christmas time off. So, reword what he says and make it HER option.
Does that help?
Tim
P.S. - My wife thinks she can program because she can change formulas in a spreadsheet; I am happy to let her have a toenail in my world and let her think she is swimming with the dolphins.
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Tim Carmichael wrote: She heard my words, but interpreting them in a manner I did not mean, but, to her, that is exactly what I said
Now, I can say, I'm a woman after all. IMO, the reason why WE are like that is because we are used to express ourselves through trivial words, like saying, "I'm fine" though we're not. Saying, "It's nothing" though deep inside, there's something bothering us.
I don't know why are we like this, but in some cases, I can say that if I use "I'm fine" and "It's nothing", I just want to get my man's attention. I want him to push me to tell him what is really bothering me.
Just a glimpse on how a woman's mind works.
Tim Carmichael wrote: reword what he says and make it HER option.
Maybe it applies to some, but for me, it's just a "Yes" or "No". And just give straight answer to my "Why" question.
Tim Carmichael wrote: Does that help?
Yes. Thanks. 
Don't mind those people who say you're not HOT. At least you know you're COOL.
I'm not afraid of falling, I'm afraid of the sudden stop at the end of the fall! - Richard Andrew x64
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0. I'm not, I look forward to it.
1. With the woman I want to marry, nothing.
2. I don't understand it myself, but I suspect it's the doublethink of some men wanting to be married and single at the same time. 
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You hear a lot these days about how Test Driven Development frees you from having to sweat the small stuff and just get on with adding new features.
In its purest form the proponents seem to suggest you can avoid thinking too hard and as long as you make it pass the next test you're a real developer. More loosely I guess you don't have think too hard about regression because as long as the tests still pass then the code still does what the tests are testing for. That means you can go ahead and implement something else real quickly and know that you haven't broken anything that has a test.
But what about the bits that aren't/can't be tested? You still have to keep an eye on them and making a test for everything in the real world is hard-verging on impossible.
What is so wrong with actually thinking hard about what it is you are being asked to do, working out the best way to achieve it and then carefully implementing it properly?
Background - I've been arguing for more automated testing in our organisation for a little while and I keep on getting responses about how not using the crutch of automated testing encourages doing it right the first time.
I hate to admit it but that argument does make some sense. Right? I mean, it worked ok in the punch-card days.
So what do people out there think?
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Mat Fergusson wrote: What is so wrong with actually thinking hard about what it is you are being asked to do, working out the best way to achieve it and then carefully implementing it properly?
Because it flies in the face of that horrible phrase I hear once in a while "breadth vs. depth". I was turned down from a job opportunity because I was seen as a "depth" person rather than a go-go-go we need as much surface area covered as possible. In fact, as soon as they said "we approach development in a breadth before depth manner" I knew I was doomed.
Thinking hard? What's that? Oh, you mean it's something you do to avoid code like this (I kid you not, as discovered when we were looking through the code base
LogFieldChange(oldField, newField)
...
def LogFieldChange(newField, oldField)
...
And you know what? They knew about that piece of code, they even had a ticket tracking it, and it was at least 6 months old! But no, that would require "depth" to fix.
Even worse, they had a serious bug manifest because of it in the production version, and instead of fixing the root cause, they simply fixed the caller to reverse the parameters, so that it was now out of sync with the function declaration. Oooh, that just gets me.
Ironically, when actually working with TDD, I find that it often takes hard thinking to get the code formed in a way that makes it suitable for TDD, and sometimes requires a certain amount of "hoopage." It also no replacement for integration testing, and the project I was interviewing for had a huge suite of unit tests, TDD tests, and Javascript tests, which became an unwieldy burden to deal with when making even small-ish changes. Yuck.
I still prefer the age old approaches for good code: small functions, no side-effects if possible, simple unentangled classes, and some good mechanisms for hooking things together, hopefully with some kind of automated logging built in. In other words, I try to program like a functional programmer (pun intended) even if I'm coding in an imperative language.
And yes, TDD and Unit Testing can be (and very often is) employed as a crutch for doing it right (deep thinking required!) the first time.
As I've blogged about[^], we have a really screwed up culture for software development.
Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote: I still prefer the age old approaches for good code: small functions, no side-effects if possible, simple unentangled classes, and some good mechanisms for hooking things together,
One of the advantages of TDD, surely, is that it encourages programming like that?
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_Maxxx_ wrote: One of the advantages of TDD, surely, is that it encourages programming like that?
One would think. But from what I've seen of other people's code (and all of this "experience" comes from the Ruby world) the answer is no. I still see functions that screens long, poor understanding of OO principles, and don't even get me started on the lack of code comments.
Marc
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How about, breadth and depth both, however much is appropriate?!
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Super Lloyd wrote: How about, breadth and depth both, however much is appropriate?!
I totally agree. That is always what I'm balancing, though I do know my leanings are toward depth.
Marc
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<rhetorical>Who tests the tests?</rhetorical>
Seriously, it's more stuff that could break and/or increase maintenance efforts. Anyone using TDD had better not
Mat Fergusson wrote: avoid thinking too hard
Use the right tool for the right job; sure, use TDD, but don't slack off on the fundamentals.
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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I am neither an advocate of, nor am I opposed to it in principal.
The great thing about unit tests in general, is that they should prevent side-effects creeping into a system when a small, seemingly unrelated change is made.
If you are using TDD then there shouldn't be many places where you find bits that can't be tested - because you write the tests first and then program to pass the test. Sometimes (certainly more often than I'd like) this means structuring a solution in a way to suit unit tests, and not in a way that one would otherwise choose. (a good example is the static service class - an ideal use of a static class, but because of the difficulty in unit testing, would need to be engineered as a non static class and injected)
Mat Fergusson wrote: What is so wrong with actually thinking hard about what it is you are being asked to do, working out the best way to achieve it and then carefully implementing it properly?
The problem is that, even very smart people, who are gobsmackingly awesome developers, can make mistakes when maintaining complex systems that are not well documented, because they will make well-thought-out changes, imlement them in the best possible way, properly and, after deployment, it will transpire that one client uses the system differently and a side-effect of that change is that the system falls into a black hole, and everyone starts shouting. And I hate shouting!
Mat Fergusson wrote: using the crutch of automated testing encourages doing it right the first time.
When scuba diving, one checks one's own equipment, then checks one's buddy's equipment. Does this make you lazy and more likely to miss something, leaving it up to your buddy to prevent you drowning? Possibly. Does it therefore lead to more drownings? No - because that second check gets done. (and, frankly, one doesn't want to be caught out and embarrassed by one's buddy gleeful cry of "not turning your air on, today then?"
Mat Fergusson wrote: it worked ok in the punch-card days.
Yep - and in those days we also wrote full flow charts before writing code, and documented to the nth degree - so making a change involved a lot of up-=front thought, and the changes to the flowchart and documentation being checked by humans. These days we can use computers to do some of that checking - it's what they are good at, shirley?
IMHO, when starting a new project, using TDD can be useful over the life of the project. Adding tests to an existing project - place in the 'too-hard' basket and move on.
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_Maxxx_ wrote: IMHO, when starting a new project, using TDD can be useful over the life of the project. Adding tests to an existing project - place in the 'too-hard' basket and move on.
I have to disagree. Adding tests to codethulu makes it much easier to eventually dismantle the monster into something sane. I started seriously adding test coverage to a long standing code base about 2 years ago; have most of the non-UI code under test (need to work on that at some point; too much business logic in event handlers) and am finally unwinding a number of blunders from years ago that have been chronic pains ever since. Once I'm able to hop back to the 2nd app using the shared part of it I should be able to undo the worst of what's been left.
The trick is to start with high level integration ("smoke") tests not unit tests.
Something I recently wrote elsewhere on the subject of adding tests to old code:
If you're dealing with large amounts of legacy code that isn't currently under test, getting test coverage now instead of waiting for a hypothetical big rewrite in the future is the right move. Starting by writing unit tests is not.
Without automated testing, after making any changes to the code you need to do some manual end to end testing of the app to make sure it's working. Start by writing high level integration tests to replace that. If your app reads files in, validates them, processes the data in some fashion, and displays the results you want tests that capture all of that.
Ideally you'll either have data from a manual test plan or be able to get a sample of actual production data to use. If not, since the app's in production, in most cases it's doing what it should be, so just make up data that will hit all the high points and assume the output is correct for now. It's no worse than taking a small function, assuming it's doing what it's name or any comments suggest it should be doing, and writing tests assuming it's working correctly.
IntegrationTestCase1()
{
var input = ReadDataFile("path\to\test\data\case1in.ext");
bool validInput = ValidateData(input);
Assert.IsTrue(validInput);
var processedData = ProcessData(input);
Assert.AreEqual(0, processedData.Errors.Count);
bool writeError = WriteFile(processedData, "temp\file.ext");
Assert.IsFalse(writeError);
bool filesAreEqual = CompareFiles("temp\file.ext", "path\to\test\data\case1out.ext");
Assert.IsTrue(filesAreEqual);
}
Once you've got enough of these high level tests written to capture the apps normal operation and most common error cases the amount of time you'll need to spend pounding on the keyboard to try and catch errors from the code doing something other than what you thought it was supposed to do will go down significantly making future refactoring (or even a big rewrite) much easier.
As you're able to expand unit test coverage you can pare down or even retire most of the integration tests. If your app's reading/writing files or accessing a DB, testing those parts in isolation and either mocking them out or having your tests begin by creating the data structures read from the file/database are an obvious place to start. Actually creating that testing infrastructure will take a lot longer than writing a set of quick and dirty tests; and every time you run a 2 minute set of integration tests instead of spending 30 minutes manually testing a fraction of what the integration tests covered you're already making a big win.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Admittedly, a few end-to end integration tests is about as far as I've ever gotten with testing in the past.
We customise a behemoth system that dates back to before automated testing was a real thing. This means that everything is tied to the live database, even code. I suspect that it is possible to break apart some units but so far its proving hard, especially given the timescales we work to.
For now I shall keep on with the integration tests and aim for more in the future. Perhaps I'll be able to demonstrate a regression being found by a test one day soon.
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my legacy DB is at least in a config file. We never mocked it out (and probably never will; effort >> return); but the dal is tested against it's own private automated testing database that it can abuse and mistreat all it wants with nobody caring.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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