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Frank Reidar Haugen wrote: Why Python?
Teacher probably likes it.
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote: but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable
When I went to university I was taught, at a very basic level, several languages. If this is a university why are they not doing that? If it is some technical school where the intent is solely to get someone working then a fixed focus single language might be better.
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote: The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages?
Definitely.
C is procedural
Java/C#/C++ are OO
SQL itself is different than others and extensions to that are procedural (but attempting on procedural concepts is a big mistake.)
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Frank Reidar Haugen wrote: But am I wrong?
It doesn't matter what you think, only that your friend use the tools/technologies offered by the instructor. Even if you are 100% right, that would not get him a passing grade. When he gets out into the real world, then he can use what he wants (per your suggestions).
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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Python isn't bad, especially compared to C-like languages like C#/Java. You get (out the box) at least the same libraries as you do for DotNet/JVM, and then some (as Python's own built-in libs are enormous compared to most others).
The thing which Python does "really" well is the ease of using much more complicated data structures (lists, hashtables, etc. are no more complicated to use than arrays in C). Other stuff are things like a REPL (though not as perfect as Lisp/Hasskell's). Really clean code - it's sometimes referred to as an exact 1:1 translation of pseudo code. It provides some functional paradigms, but not a full fledged FP language. No strict OO - i.e. a function need not be part-n-parcel of a class. Much less code to write than C#/Java to get the same thing. OO concepts in it's imports statement, e.g. you can import an entire "package" normally, then refer to it's internals using the OO-dot-notation, or using the * wildcard to import the internals as if loaded locally, or import a single internal without the rest of the package. It has a very large community, thus mentors and examples are not difficult to find.
There are some issues with Python:
Dynamic typing - though this isn't necessarily a problem. But for someone coming from a C-like language you'd probably miss the explicit typing. The biggest possible issue I can see with this is some error checks are impossible which are possible in a explicitly- (C) or inferred (Haskell/F#) typed language. Though there are alternatives - e.g. PyLint.
It's interpreted by default, though some of its implementations do compile. E.g. CPython compiles to pyc files on the fly (these are similar to Java's class files in that they're bytecode to be run through the PVM. Others also add high optimization (e.g. PyPy), compiling to other VM's (e.g Jython for JVM, IronPython for DotNet), and binary compiling comparable to most other languages (e.g. Nuitka).
Non-pure closures, it's version of lexical scoping is a bit weird - and therefore pure FP isn't possible. But this you only notice if you're used to a full FP language (like Scheme / F# / Haskell / etc.) - you'd not notice the difference if you come from a procedural language like C. This has been alleviated a bit in Py 3 with its nonlocal keyword though.
Python (as is) doesn't do multi-threading, not easily at least. But there is the multiprocess interface, easy to use, but means more RAM for processes than threads.
Only single-line lambdas are possible.
It's OO method's a bit "strange" in that the member functions need to explicitly receive a "self" parameter (similar to how CLOS works for Common Lisp), but you call that member function the normal dot-notated way (like in Java/C#/Pascal/etc.) I find this a bit schizophrenic.
Other issues with it's OO, e.g. no means of making hidden fields (there's no private/protected/internal/etc. decorations - only a convention that a underscore prefix means it's intended to only be used inside the class).
So Python has it's troubles, but so has every other language I've even come across. But what I would suggest to your friend: Don't stop at Python. It's good for learning the broader concepts about programming, but at some point you need to look deeper into the details also - thus it might be very good to move onto C after Python, and then onto a more "normal" OO like Java/C#. And then to really get into the FP bracket, Scheme/Haskell.
modified 3-Jun-14 2:47am.
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irneb wrote: but at some point you need to look deeper into the details also - thus it might be very good to move onto C after Python, and then onto a more "normal" OO like Java/C#. And then to really get into the FP bracket, Scheme/Haskell.
That 
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
----
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I currently work mostly under Windows in a variety of languages. I prefer C# for getting things done more quickly (and reliably) but often end up having to use Python.
You can get off the ground far faster in Python but your maximum altitude, range and reliability are more limited.
As an introduction to programming it's OK, especially for students who don't plan on going any further. But I wouldn't use it too much before moving on to something more "structured" for anybody looking at a career in programming.
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You're ignorant. Leave your poor friend alone.
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Frank Reidar Haugen wrote: Python is what the programmers need today
That's very debatable. It depends on where and what he wants to work with. There is no silver bullet. Having said that, I'd urge him to learn C, not because of the style, but of what he can learn with it.
Working with pointers and manual memory management can prepare his mind to develop much more efficient code in high level languages. Once you can program in C, you can program in virtually anything else (except lower level assembly and the sorts). It's a great common ground to have.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
----
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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One thing that Python has going for it is its simplicity. It's a simple language, where you don't need a lot of OO cruft to get results from.
The other is a truly dedicated set of people who not only love the language, but love to contribute to it. The IPython notebook system is excellent for testing snippets of code, and seeing the results immediately.
http://www.pgbovine.net/ipython-notebook-first-impressions.htm[^]
I'd disagree with the teacher where he says that "Python is what programmers need today to be hireable", but there's a lot of power in the language, and it's being used by squads of scientists who aren't waiting for a programmer/developer/analyst to get around to resolving their issues.
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Frank,
Honestly my first language was BASIC (on a Timex Sinclair, no less).
Having programmed in over 30 languages and more than a few "custom" languages,
I like the idea of Python for a first language. (C was always my favorite language,
but is requires running before you can walk for most new programmers).
Here is why I like Python:
1) It teaches INDENTATION (and requires it), which makes code more readable to humans, a big point for beginners
2) It is quite forgiving, and does not require that ;
3) It has the basics, and even the advanced iterators
4) You can leverage libraries very early, very easily
5) It can grow to handle large problems
And frankly, the argument over what language is best is TOUGH. Whatever language someone is teaching, and if
you enjoy the class, and really sink your teeth into the work, it really does not matter that much.
I think of the language as a TOOL, like a TYPE of Hammer... The problem, many times, screams for a specific language.
I learned this lesson when I tried to write a BASIC "renumber" program using COBOL (ANSI 76 Cobol). I gave up.
The string handling/parsing was near impossible for me. I was still in high school, and I challenged myself. I
switched to Fortran, and it got was easy. I always felt it would have been easier to use the MACRO-11 Assembly
over Cobol (and later when I taught myself the Assembly, I realized it would have been).
So, don't get all religious on the choice of the first language. As long as he doesnt get a disease from his "first", he will be fine, and able to choose better according to the problems he has to solve.
Instead encourage him to READ a lot of the code, and IMPLEMENT something interesting.
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Programming is more about how you solve the problem, not what language you use. If the teacher can teach this process best with python,then go for it. I've coded in multiple languages (including python) and the syntax is rarely the issue for me.
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I think you're overthinking this. What he needs to do first is to learn how to be a good programmer -- the language doesn't matter. If he's an awesome Python programmer, how long will it really take him to pick up C#?
Good programmers can learn new languages fairly quickly, especially if they are to use on the job with others who know the language.
Also, it not be a bad idea for you to learn Python. For your next personal project, try using Python -- real Python, not Iron Python, and see what you think. In the end, it will make you a better C# programmer.
Give yourself one afternoon and watch these two videos: http://youtu.be/tKTZoB2Vjuk[^] and code along with it. You'll know enough to write Python code after that.
ken@kasajian.com / www.kasajian.com
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I haven't used Python for long, still I think it's clean and friendly enough to be a good choise to learn programming. Sure I think it may not be the best option when talking about market share, but if you really like programming, you will learn a new language; it has never been a stoper for somebody that really likes programming. And Python will give you a fine setup for everything else.
There's also the advantange of knowing a scripting language to do those little or repetitive tasks that sometimes big languages are not the fastest (on development time, at least) options or the best fit. For example, I like Ruby when it's time to process text files.
If we are talking about the languages used in "the real world", why has nobody said a word about Java? From my understanding, Java is the most widely used language (if we take apart C/C++ since it is innecesarilly complex nowadays, at least for line of business applications). I'm mainly a C# developer, so I can't say a lot about Java, but I can't deny its importance in the business. What do you think?
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Whatever language he choses as his first language is fine, but he must understand that to be hirable he must learn other languages too.
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Perhaps the next class is about hardware implementation and everybody uses something like a Raspberry Pi. That's why I'm learning Python.
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I don't know about you, but it has never crossed my mind what it must be like inside the dishwasher (NO, not the wife!)
Well now this chap has done it, I think mine is getting the once over when I go home. possibly also the washing machine!
http://www.dailydot.com/lol/dishwasher-gopro-camera/[^]
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What a great time to be alive !
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.
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When I was at university it was an oft played game in the launderette late at night to climb into a tumble drier, have your mates insert 20p then shut the doors for a few spins.
You had to trust them to let you out again though, and only use a cool setting.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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chriselst wrote: You had to trust them to let you out again though, and only use a cool setting.
Not going to happen.
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What not even after a few (bottles) of Gin?
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Amazingly indestructible wish my D7000 would have been as much.
It's in the repair shop now because it got partially submerged in the lake. I dried it for 4 days and it almost worked but wouldn't take pictures...damn. Hoping I get it back before camping trip in 2 weeks! Man I am lost without it, I can do without my cell phone but feel naked without the camera.
If first you don't succeed, hide all evidence you ever tried!
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You can watch it live at 10AM US Pacific time here[^]. If, and only if, you watch it on an Apple device. 
cheers
Chris Maunder
modified 3-Jun-14 7:44am.
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To kick seven shades of **** out of the parrot that wouldn't stop swearing.......
See next thread.....edit: after the one below that crept in!
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'
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Why did the pervert cross the road?
To catch up with the chicken.
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