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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: I refer to the great off-shoring push of software dev, IT and call center work 10+ years ago. Yes, I know off-shoring has been around for decades. But in the early 2000's, there was a major push for off-shoring more than at any other time in U.S. history.
There was a major media reporting of that - the reality of jobs actually moving is far different. The reality of doing it successfully is also far different.
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Yeah, tell that to the unemployed IT workers, people with degrees, who ended up working for the TSA. I watched dozens of people fall to the axe because of "alternative" resources.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: I watched dozens of people fall to the axe because of "alternative" resources.
That of course doesn't have anything to do with the market as a whole.
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Hehe. Keep believing that. I'll go with my direct experience.
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OK. I watched a ton of people I worked with (30+) get let go and the very next week, a bunch of Indian faces replaced them.
Out of the 200 or so Indians I've worked with in the last 12 years, I can count on 1 hand how many of them actually knew what the Hell they were doing. I'm not talking about doing development work either. I'm talking doing mundane admin tasks, installing Windows, rolling back a virtual machine, installing software for testing on Vista and Win7, testing a newly built installer, ... simple stuff!
I sh*t you not, the Indian guy I replaced at Blue Cross couldn't figure out how to drag and drop to copy a file in Windows! I have 10 eye witnesses to prove it.
Please, tell me again how I'm thinking emotionally and ignoring the evidence?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not an Indian basher. I bash idiots who have no clue how to teach themselves anything or have any motivation to do so. It doesn't matter if they hold an H1B or not. I've also seen way too many U.S. people who couldn't do the same things. We got rid of one white guy last year because he took 3 months to do a simple setup capture repackage, and never did get it right.
I currently work with 5 Indian guys, all of whom know what they're doing in their respective jobs and I appreciate that. I've just seen way, WAY too many who don't.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: OK. I watched a ton of people I worked with (30+) get let go and the very next week, a bunch of Indian faces replaced them.
I worked for a company that has and does have a very successfully managed outsourcing initiative.
The first doesn't mean that every single job will be outsourced. It doesn't mean that many will be. It doesn't mean that those that are will be successful.
Matter of fact the very attributes that make that company so successful at outsourcing are the very factors that will make it impossible for most companies to even attempt it and it also diminishes the probability that companies that do try it will be successful.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: Out of the 200 or so Indians I've worked with in the last 12 years, I can count on 1 hand how many of them actually knew what the Hell they were doing.
Which has nothing to do with anything previously discussed. Except perhaps to support my contention that most companies that try outsourcing will fail.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: I'm talking doing mundane admin tasks, installing Windows, rolling back a virtual machine, installing software for testing on Vista and Win7, testing a newly built installer, ... simple stuff!
When I interview developers I don't care if they know how to do any of that.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: Please, tell me again how I'm thinking emotionally and ignoring the evidence?
Because a single case does not lead to the conclusion that the industry will collapse.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: I've just seen way, WAY too many who don't.
And yet you are claiming that all development jobs are going to be replaced by outsourcing?
From that it can only following that you are claiming that no software will be ever be developed again in the developed world. And obviously that isn't the case.
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I don't think this can happen. There is too much sensitive data that is not allowed outside the company or else lawsuits will follow. If you provide your own electronics, there is no guarantee that the company can provide adequate security for the data.
Think about how the IT companies try to lock down networks, servers, etc. now, and then imagine every malware infested home user's lappy getting plugged into the network each Monday.
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Pualee wrote: I don't think this can happen. There is too much sensitive data that is not allowed outside the company or else lawsuits will follow. If you provide your own electronics, there is no guarantee that the company can provide adequate security for the data.
That's certainly true of any company where you're doing real work; but if you're a buzzword compliant hipster you probably aren't; and are despairing over not being able to use your personal iPride everywhere. 
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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They're idiots for thinking they can just let someone walk in off the street, and plug in their possibly virus-filled laptop into the company network. Their IT staff would scream bloody murder at the prospect.
So wipe the person's computer and install corporate software? No way is my employer going to tell me what I can/can't do on my own computer (because that's what it would come down to in order to maintain any type of security/corporate privacy).
No way this would happen.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: They're idiots for thinking they can just let someone walk in off the street, and plug in their possibly virus-filled laptop into the company network. Their IT staff would scream bloody murder at the prospect.
They're idiots if they think it's a good idea; but often this is being driven by people in IT who want to be able to use their fondleslabs at the office. 
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: So wipe the person's computer and install corporate software? No way is my employer going to tell me what I can/can't do on my own computer (because that's what it would come down to in order to maintain any type of security/corporate privacy).
Once you've given corporate IT admin rights, or remote wipe rights, etc; it's no longer your computer even if you were stupid enough to pay for it with your money. 
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Dan Neely wrote: Once you've given corporate IT the NSA admin rights, or remote wipe surveillance rights, etc; it's no
longer your computer even if you were stupid enough to pay for it with your
money.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: So wipe the person's computer and install corporate software? No way is my
employer going to tell me what I can/can't do on my own computer (because that's
what it would come down to in order to maintain any type of security/corporate
privacy).
That reminds me of my previous employer’s client. They our removed ours antivirus and installed theirs, otherwise we wouldn’t be allowed in their domain – and I was using my personal computer. Worst, they blocked some websites; I could check my mail when on their domain. I had to be disconnect from their domain when checking my mails. Oh! They also create you an email address on their domain; all queries are sent to that address and you can’t access it outside their domain which you also can’t connect to outside their network... we were also forced to use MS Outlook, they configure it for you.
There is always a cheat by setting auto-forwarding the mails to your personal address, though it was not allowed.
I remain joe!
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Not to you, but how about a starving programmer out of work for 6 months?
You're right about the crap they expect us to run. My work PC is actually slower than the one at home, though it is 5 years newer.
This is just a ploy to make employees pay for equipment.
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If you insist that I bring my own computer then you don't get to dictate what's on it.
If you find porn on it - well, it's my home computer as well...
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I don't believe they are thinking about programmer jobs here, more of standard office workers where they do not really need a computer.
I'd rather be phishing!
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Not unreasonable really. Employer provides you with wifi, and some sort of terminal server access, something like citgo. You access your VM, do your coding. Actually they don't even need to provide you an office or wifi, you can do it from home.
Need 2 factor authentication from your employer a vm and some method of RDC and that's really it.
"Sanity is not statistical."
- Eric Blair, 1984, Chapter 9
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kmg365 wrote: Not unreasonable really.
And robots will take over all menial tasks.
However in the real world, one must deal with all the non-ideal realities that intrude. Such, for example, the fact that humans are really, really poor at predicting the future especially long term predictions.
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I am already working like this and eventually... you will to.
jschell wrote: And robots will take over all menial tasks.
No Latvians will[^], and will do it for a potato.
"Sanity is not statistical."
- Eric Blair, 1984, Chapter 9
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kmg365 wrote: and eventually... you will to.
Nope.
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Marc Clifton wrote: No it's not. That would be like a construction worker bringing their own crane.
Do you believe every opinion piece that you read?
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What gives you the impression I do? You certainly don't know me!
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Marc Clifton wrote: What gives you the impression I do?
Then one should give the opinion piece exactly the attention it deserves - none.
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jschell wrote: Then one should give the opinion piece exactly the attention it deserves - none.
It's not an opinion piece, it's based on what companies are planning on doing:
A survey of 2,000 CIOs by technology consulting firm Gartner finds that by 2017, half of employers worldwide are expected to require employees to supply their own computing devices...
Sure it's a survey, but a survey is different from an opinion.
Marc
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Yeah, it'll never fly for the great bulk of employees, but I suppose for the hipster douchebags who do sales presentations and want to show off their latest iDung it could be made to work -- anything to keep them out of the office.
It reminds me of when my wife worked in a call center and the rule was that they had to read their email each morning, which had to be done at work, but they weren't allowed to do it on company time. The management said it was like McDonald's employees having to put on their uniforms on their own time. They lost the class action suit.
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