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CDP1802 wrote: It's obvious that a video is a great help
Not to me. I'd still prefer something written, with pictures maybe, but hard copy nonetheless
A video can be helpful as an addition to that, no doubt - especially for something requiring manual dexterity like, oh, I don't know, changing the rotor on a toy helicopter 
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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CDP1802 wrote: a video is a great help when you have to take something apart and better put it back together the way it was.
Dunno. If there's movement involved, then I suppose a video can show that better (e.g. one of our UC instructors gave us a book with loads of photos, which was a bit of a joke), but I usually prefer a walkthrough with photos/pictures, where all I have to do to advance or back up a step or two is move my eyes.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I think it depends on what you're trying to gain information on.
If it's some procedure I need to follow to make something, for example, cooking, I prefer written material with diagrams or photos as appropriate.
If it's general information on how things work (science, engineering) or how things happened (history) I prefer videos although written material isn't bad.
If it's some instruction I need to follow to perform something, like Yoga or a dance, I think videos work better.
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...
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I mainly use books and CP articles, sometimes even MSDN is not so bad..
We don't have sound cards here, so video is no choice. Flash is not even installed.
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It really depends on what the subject is: if it's anything that needs typing in, then written is much, much better - if only because you can see more easily exactly what to type and where. Video tends to be less clear on this.
But video excels (if done properly) when if comes to complex disassembly / assembly: did you ever try to rebuild a gearbox from a Haynes Book Of Lies? A video of the disassembly and reassembly process would be a lot, lot easier to follow (if only because the author can't accidentally forget to mention the bolt hidden under the flange - they would have to explicitly cut that step from the video, which would be more obvious).
The universe is composed of electrons, neutrons, protons and......morons. (ThePhantomUpvoter)
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OriginalGriff wrote: Haynes Book Of Lies?
Yes - very similar to the Ikea sheet of inaccuracy!
Speaking of which, I once stared to develop a web-based (java applet) applicatoin that was to display ikea-like constructions as a series of user-rotatable/zoomable etc. animated models.
So each step would have a short animation of the step being performed, and the viewer would be able to zoom pan rotated the view, so they could see what the hell was going on.
I didn't get too far with it, because my Java skillz weren't up to it.
I still think it would be a great thing to have, though (I bet there's something out there!)as long as the animations were relatively easy for companies to set up for their products.
Much more effective than either text n piccies or video
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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75% of time, I prefer a good written tutorial, _with pictures_. So I can use it asynchronously, I can print it and get away with it and look at it offline.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
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I prefer videos for learning. (Like Pluralsight). I also prefer videos for light interactive learning.
Whenever I want to accomplish something, I prefer text. Like the walkthrough type of thing you mentioned.
So, to answer your question.... yes
If it moves, compile it
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Interesting discussion below. It does seem to me that it's insane to assume that a community like this would divide on language barriers. The people not speaking English also want to learn to code, why should they be locked out of doing it because their English is not great ?
On the other hand, I am at a loss to understand why so many companies think it's OK to hire people who can't speak English to work in call centres. That's like hiring me for a lingerie model. It's not discrimination to point out I just don't have what it takes to do the job. My Jet* debacle came down to me needing to speak to an English speaker for them to see their website had a bug, the non English speaking layer just assumed it was my fault. The worst is ISP tech support, just because I am not an entry level tech support client, no matter what language you speak.
Christian Graus
Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote: The people not speaking English also want to learn to code, why should they be locked out of doing it because their English is not great ?
Sticking with the English speaking world - its coz coders are (relatively) expensive and need to communicate with undereducated managers who get paid more. I reckon they should come equipped with crayons and large sheets of paper.
Bascially for technical stuff you need to be able to communicate - i'd not expect to get much work in say Russia or China if you see what i mean.
Christian Graus wrote: I am at a loss to understand why so many companies think it's OK to hire people who can't speak English to work in call centres
Because they're cheap. And jet* don't care, coz they're cheap too.
Christian Graus wrote: That's like hiring me for a lingerie model
easy tiger, you'll get all the girls excited. Or Maunder anyway.
B
MCAD
---
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bryce wrote: Christian Graus wrote: That's like hiring me for a lingerie model
easy tiger, you'll get all the girls excited. Or Maunder anyway.
Well he has sent Sean out in a mankini to deliver awards before....
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Perhaps you need to let your other head speak on the phone in future? 
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Although language can be an issue (I had a Telstra support person recently who I had to ask to speak to someone else as her accent was so strong I had to ask her to repeat everything about five times before I understood her - but then again, in the UK you could get someone from Newcastle!)
Part of the problem (and this is from experience working in a company developing software for call a center) is that the people answering the phone have a script (it may be scribbled on a bit of paper, it may be electronic and 'smart') that does not take into account the type of user.
So when I call Telstra to tell them they have connected my line to ADSL 1 instead of ADSL 2, the person on the end of the phone CAN NOT bypass the steps they have in their script; so if the script is crap it's neither their fault nor their language at issue.
So I have to go through the "Yes, I have installed the latest firmware" "Yes, I have switched it off and waited 20 minutes (!) and tried again" and so on.
When we get to the end of the questions, their screen prompts them to escalate the issue to an engineer, who, one at least hopes, has some autonomy.
So (and I generalise) it's not them assuming it's your fault, it is their script. And the reason their script is like that is for a number of reasons:
the script is crap
the script is based upon historical data - most calls turn out to be the caller's fault
the script is aimed at getting you off the line (hence the restart and wait 20 minutes) to keep the call rates up
the script isn't flexible enough to cope with different types of user
Oh, and another issue (at least in the call centers in Aus) is that the average length of service of a call center operator is about five minutes (I exaggerate) many students, hitch-hikers, new mums, gap-year people etc. take jobs in call centers as the entry requirements are being able to speak and read and type a bit - so they have zero loyalty to the company, and are paid usually a flat wage - so long as they keep to their KPIs - and those KPIs probably include number of calls per hour - note not number of problems solved!
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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Yes, I agree, a big part of the issue is that the script assumes I am the moron, because most people are. But, if the person spoke English, then I could try to reason with them.
Christian Graus
Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote: try to reason with them.
Generally fighting a losing battle, there. Most call center people are under instruction to sympathise, but otherwise stick to the script and get you off the phone.
Best bet is usually to ask as soon as possible to speak to their supervisor, who at least should have some authority to listen to you!
(although I have had operators at Telstra again tell me they are transferring me to the ir supervisor, then drop the call, and also simply refuse to put me through.
After I had spent over 30 hours on the phone to Telstra trying to sort out my problems, I nearly cried when I got put through to an Aussie accent - and he promised to call me back, and DID!!
It was probably racist of me to be so relieved - but it turned out he was an honest-to-goodness engineer, who sorted out my issues within about 30 minutes, after I had been trying for a month or more.
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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Hi Christian,
There's a very simple Ockham's Razor answer to why companies hire people who don't have skills to communicate with clients; why they are not trained appropriately; why they follow scripts robotically: they're cheap; they're expendable, they're in countries outside the employer's country where they are not legally liable for medical coverage, worker safety, etc. As in: out-sourcing.
The issue here is not one of language, but exploitation, and the nature of modern multi-national technology economics.
It is management, and owners, and shareholders, who should be the target of your wrath, not some person in a foreign country who's trying to realize their human potential as best they can, and move-up economically.
But, it's so easy, so cheap, to just vent our spleen on the person "at hand," never mind the human context, isn't it ?
yours, Bill
“Human beings do not live in the objective world alone, nor alone in the world of social activity as ordinarily understood, but are very much at the mercy of the particular language which has become the medium of expression for their society. It is quite an illusion to imagine that one adjusts to reality essentially without the use of language and that language is merely an incidental means of solving specific problems of communication or reflection." Edward Sapir, 1929
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Of course, and that's why I am venting my spleen here, and not on the phone. The people in question are just trying to make a quid, same as everyone else, it's not actually their fault that they were hired for a job they can't do.
BillWoodruff wrote: It is management, and owners, and shareholders, who should be the target of your wrath, not some person in a foreign country who's trying to realize their human potential as best they can, and move-up economically.
Was it not clear ? It's the people who decide that is the way to offer me customer service, that I am upset with.
Christian Graus
Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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From that POV, I must concur. It is irresponsible and insulting when companies employ help desk staff who cannot communicate. My personal favourite is now BT, all their customer support has been moved offshore and it is horrendous.
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol
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BillWoodruff wrote: The issue here is not one of language, but exploitation, and the nature of
modern multi-national technology economics.
That is too simplistic.
The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of calls in a consumer market are things that the service department cannot fix and should not have had to deal with it in the first place. And this happens even with more technical problems.
If you were (or are) an engineer with 20 years of experience would you want to answer 10 calls out of 100 every day where the user did in fact not turn on the modem but where you had to verbally explain to them how to find the on/off switch after, verbally, determining which of 20 different modem models it was?
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Christian Graus wrote: the non English speaking layer just assumed it was my fault
Nah, they probably just thought "..another f**king aussie smart*rse."
But I agree, a while back I spent ages on the blower to Telecom's callcentre (somewhere in Manila) having to ask the nice lady (and she was) at the other end to repeat herself again and again as my brain tried to process what it was being sent by my ears.
If your neighbours don't listen to The Ramones, turn it up real loud so they can.
“We didn't have a positive song until we wrote 'Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue!'” ― Dee Dee Ramone
"The Democrats want my guns and the Republicans want my porno mags and I ain't giving up either" - Joey Ramone
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Mark H2 wrote: another f**king aussie smart*rse."
They'd been speaking to MM then?
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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They don't speak to MM, they LISTEN to him.
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol
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Christian Graus wrote: Interesting discussion below
You know, I missed the thread completely, but this comment made me go back and read - not all, but most of it.
Thanks so f***ing much for wasting an hour of my time. There was nothing interesting in that, just a stupid troll pissing off all the locals. 
You owe me one! 
Why can't I be applicable like John? - Me, April 2011
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Beidh ceol, caint agus craic againn - Seán Bán Breathnach
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Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo!
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Just because a thing is new don’t mean that it’s better - Will Rogers, September 4, 1932
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We had to live through it, so it's only fair you get to enjoy it too.
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol
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