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I guess that means they will lose business with any companies or government agencies that would normally run their [desktop] products on secure intranets that can't do internet cloud stuff.
I really think that cloud-everything will eventually be the next dot-com-bomb.. far too much hype and not enough reality check.
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I have been here for about 2 years now and I honestly love the country. I don't want to get all soapboxy but this place will suck in say next 10 years. Still, I would like to relocate here.
Now, I know we have very few people from SA here but I want to know what a mediocre foreign programmer achieve in South Africa? How easy or difficult it is for a non-citizen to be an employee here? And is it really a good idea to move here?
I may as well leave IT and do something wildlife related to come here. Again, I just love South Africa.
"Bastards encourage idiots to use Oracle Forms, Web Forms, Access and a number of other dinky web publishing tolls.", Mycroft Holmes[ ^]
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d@nish wrote: place will suck in say next 10 years
Why would you move to a country if you believe it's going to get worse? 
.-.
|o,o|
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Honestly, I don't know. I always have these fluctuating thoughts, like a teenager, about my future. I see a lot of social work and wildlife related opportunities here regardless of money and that why I probably want to move here.
"Bastards encourage idiots to use Oracle Forms, Web Forms, Access and a number of other dinky web publishing tolls.", Mycroft Holmes[ ^]
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The standard of living is still very good. The malls are up there with the best of them and the restaurants still deliver great service and food. A lot depends on where you live. Joburg was my city and it still has that rough edge to it which is more African-esque than say those snobbish cnuts that reside in that over-hyped city of Cape Town. The major development hub is in Joburg. That's where most of the banks have their HQs and the M1 corridor from Joburg through Midrand to Pretoria has a lot of very good companies. I used to work for Nedbank in their IT centre in Sandton. Wifey and me used to live in Parkmore just down the drag from it and we loved it. You're partly right about the country going down the tubes but unlike other countries in the African continent SA is way above all of them and so will survive.
Getting permanent residence isn't going to be easy and the rules are like most countries anywhere, a company has to prove it can't use local labour to fill a job. Then again, IT is still a good bet as the universities aren't producing the quality required by the financial sector. You'd have to ask the local government to see what the rules are now. Getting a work permit will be easier than getting citizenship. You don't want to commute because (a) you can't as there's no established public transport and (b) getting in/out and around Joburg is a pain in the arse.
Under no circumstances work in the city centre. I used to work in Commissioner Street when it was safe to do so and it was clean. My wife worked at Park Lane clinic and we lived on the edge of Hillbrow. F*** it! Hillbrow is a total slum now and anyone who works near it is stupid or double stupid. Hillbrow and Braamfontein are the two reasons all the major financial sector companies moved to the northern suburbs and midrand.
Getting into wildlife isn't easy either. A mate of mine worked for Gencor and used to run the stock in their five game farms. Getting into the KNP or private lodges is virtually closed to all but those who are brilliant trackers or are well qualified in other areas related to conservation or the hospitality business. Smaller farms do have openings but the typical game farm grunt gets paid next to nothing. Then again, if I could work at Leopard Hills, Mala Mala, Timbavati, Londolozi and the other private farms I'd work for nothing!
SA is a stunningly beautiful country. I could wax lyrical about all the places I went to. I only lived in Joburg's environs. For me those tossers in Cape Town are stuck-up nose-in-the-air arseholes who think the world owes them a living. For me, the real SA is outside the cities and well away from the tourist-tat areas. You don't find work in them which is a bummer. Learning a second language is recommended. You have about 11 official ones to choose from. Afrikaans is more common than you think and if we were to move back to SA, I'd put Zulu on my list of want-to-dos.
Durban has some IT hubs and Cape Town takes second place to Joburg for the major IT centres. I suspect though that there's a lot of competition for the places that are on offer. Remember too, that SA has high inflation and you have to have private medical aid. Any state pension is probably worth less than a bowl of peanuts to you must provide your own pension and investment portfolio. And don't forget the rugby either.
Joburg is lovely city. For sure it doesn't have the postcard-picture of say Cape Town but you make and lose friends in Joburg easier than you do in Cape Town. The Star and Sunday Times used to run every good job going and so did the Pretoria News but competition is fierce. Bloem, Witbank, Potch and other towns are less likely to have much on offer. You could also look to Namibia as well. Swakopmund was quite a well-to-do city for mining related software and its capital Windhoek also had a good reputation. Unfortunately, I remember the country when it was called SWA. When the government f***ed me in the 70s/80s I did some of my military service in the Caprivi Strip. But Jobur has the edge in IT and that's where the major money is to be found.
Where are you currently based. Don't say Cape Town. If you do I'll personally come back and kick some sense into you. 
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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That is really good read. Thanks.
I am currently in Centurion and have already done my share of touristy travels around the country. I have no interest in moving away from Joburg. It is brilliant here. As far as languages are concerned, I can speak few Afrikaans sentences and few Zulu words.
I think I should stick for some more time and evaluate. One of the biggest investments for me will be to buy a car. As of now, I am lucky to get paid for rental cars. I also notice huge wage fluctuations so need to figure out that as well.
"Bastards encourage idiots to use Oracle Forms, Web Forms, Access and a number of other dinky web publishing tolls.", Mycroft Holmes[ ^]
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Centurion, eh? FTFY. It's probably changed a bit since I was last there which at the time was nothing much more than the cricket ground and a few bars and restaurants. I remember once running into a group of the Bloukappies van Pretoria af who were there that day. Bugger me, they were a scary bunch of omas and tannies. Given its proximity to Pretoria and the dreaded Voortekkerhoogte monument a day in Centurion for them was probably a great day out.
If you get the chance and haven't done so, take a trip up north to Gaberone in Botswana but avoid the Beit Bridge border crossing if at all possible. I think they filmed some of the BBC's No. 1 Lady's Detective Agency series in Gabs.
The thing you mention about the difference in salaries is something to ponder. There are cheaper parts of Joburg, mostly in the southern suburbs but Randburg/Rivonia/Sandton and the like are the better areas but at a cost. I wish we'd kept our house in Parkmore when we came over. Not so long ago my b-i-l said one a couple of streets from ours was sold with business rights for something like R3.2m. We sold ours in 1997 for just over R275,000.
I also looked once at Discovery's website. They had developer jobs going but with the blatant comment "Only applications from black applicants will be considered." So much for equality in the "New" SA. 
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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Centurion is quite a laid back town. But good thing is that Joburg is not too far and same applies for Sandton or Rosebank or Greenside(it getting better each day).
Botswana travel will be a bit of an issue as I need to pay some more to rental car providers and may have to bribe in some places (for no apparent reason apart from saving my ass).
I find it difficult to figure out a decent income unless I have a place in mind where I want to settle here. First choice would be Sandton which is expensive.
PHS241 wrote: Only applications from black applicants will be considered
Ridiculous.
"Bastards encourage idiots to use Oracle Forms, Web Forms, Access and a number of other dinky web publishing tolls.", Mycroft Holmes[ ^]
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Sandton mall is a gem. World class in fact. Before Sandton Square became the twee setting it's now become (Mandela Square?) it had superb restaurants. The Butcher Shop and Grill was once rated the best steakhouse in the world and it was outstanding. The inside part of the mall has/had a really good choice of eateries. We often preferred Hyde Park mall and Bryanston used to have some nice places as well. The only one that turned for the worse was Randburg's mall. Wifey used to love the bran muffins sold at Mug & Bean (?) chain. Just outside Dullstroom (eastern Transvaal) is an incredible restaurant specialising in pannekoek. Worth the three hour drive from Joburg just for those alone.
Pity the beer isn't so lekker. I mean, Castle lager is superb because that's really all there is. Unless you find somewhere that imports Windhoek lagers but then again, when it's 35degC+ I'll settle for a cold beer regardless of make.
Greenside used to have a lot of very good Jewish restaurants although I don't know what it's like to live in that part of the world. I lived for a while in Northcliff and a bit further north in Honeydew. Both nice areas but I suspect Northcliff is also very expensive now. I'd advise against the slum flats around the Cresta area. Poorly built, poorly maintained but affordable and close to Cresta mall which is nice enough in its own way. Yeah, Sandton is lovely. Parkmore was ideally located. My mum remembered it when you could ride a horse from Parkmore to Rivonia and the Rosebank area and you had to open and close farm gates on the way. I don't think a horse has been seen there for over 50 years now!
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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Unfortunately, I am a vegetarian so African food just does not excite me. Beer on the other hand does. I am not a fan of lagers I like my stout and draught. I like Windhoek and Castle draughts although I have started liking Steph Weiss and some German stout I tried a Jozy beer festival last week.
Thing I liked the most about Greenside was the shabeem (?) like bar set up at one place. I found it beautiful. Although they were selling alcohol to kids dressed in school uniform.
I am not into malls as we have lots and lots of them everywhere in India. I don't know if you have seen it or not but the Vodacom building, 50 stories high or something, still stands strong and young guys hold crazy parties there on the roof I heard.
"Bastards encourage idiots to use Oracle Forms, Web Forms, Access and a number of other dinky web publishing tolls.", Mycroft Holmes[ ^]
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Shabeens are indeed fun places. They used to be rather menacing places years back and whitey folk were looked upon with grave suspicion. Post 1994 and they opened up to be places where you'd could buy a cold beer, relatively cheap and where it was okay to talk sh*t and what have you. As for selling booze to kids in school uniforms, nothing has changed. I don't know the Vodacom building but the landscape has changed dramatically over the years. There used to be some beautiful old buildings in down-town Joburg. The Rissik Street (?) poskantoor was a truly beautiful building but it's fallen into disrepair now.
Joubert Park was a nice place to walk around and the Landrost Hotel nearby was always used by the British Lions touring rugby teams but you'll never, ever see them go there anymore. We have an old mirror at home that came from the Carlton Centre hotel before it was "taken over" by new management. 
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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I live and work in Port Elizabeth. Career wise there are less IT jobs here, but there are still some good opportunities. Salaries are generally lower here, but so is cost of living and the pace of life isn't as hectic as in the bigger cities. And you have the ocean. Crime is becoming worse, but not quite as bad as some of the bigger cities. And if you are interested in wildlife, there are some game reserves like the Addo Elephant park nearby. But, take your time, do more research and make an informed decision.
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PE is much better than that coastal dump, East London. East London is to Durban what Brighton is to London, namely a shithole. I'd like to think they've cleaned it up now. I knew a few people who moved from EL to PE and were thankful to have done so. Pity they don't have a great rugby team there. 
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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East London still sucks. I've only been there for work though, so maybe biased in that way. The Southern Kings are making progress to become a descent rugby team.
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The Southern Kings. It doesn't have the same ring as the Sharks, Cheetahs, Stormers, or my team, the Bulls although I preferred it when they were known only as Natal, Free State, WP, and Northern Transvaal.
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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Ocean: no, I can't swim. I did tried scuba diving once though. To me main attraction in PE is the bring where I can do bungee. If I ever get a chance, I would.
"Bastards encourage idiots to use Oracle Forms, Web Forms, Access and a number of other dinky web publishing tolls.", Mycroft Holmes[ ^]
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Depending where you go there will always be some folk who'll throw you off a bridge, bungee cord or not.
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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I find him really good stand up comedian. One of the observations I have is that his language is "clean". "Stupid in school" is currently my favorite gig of his. Any fans of him here?
"Bastards encourage idiots to use Oracle Forms, Web Forms, Access and a number of other dinky web publishing tolls.", Mycroft Holmes[ ^]
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I assume there are two Brian Regans[^]
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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So, the deal I made when moving to my current co was that I wanted X. They weren't prepared to pay X, so offered X-Y*, raising to X after a satisfactory 3 month probation period. All of this was negotiated via an agent - I think you can see where this is going...
After glowing performance reviews, my employer deny having these conversations with the agent. The agent has not written anything down, but insists that the conversations did take place.
Anybody got any thoughts or opinions** on the matter?
* Y is a reasonable amount of money, not life changing.
** "Agents are evil" or any variant thereof is not a helpful opinion, given that we all already know it.
*** In the UK, so US laws don't apply. Also, where did you find 3 asterisks in the main text?
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The agent is an idiot for not confirming it (you are also culpable here - you should have ensured it was written into your contract prior to signing).
The employer is also being an arse and not showing you any respect. I would look for a new contract ASAP - why would you want to work for a liar?
Alternatively, tell the agent the difference has to come out of their slice of the pie.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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mark merrens wrote: The agent is an idiot for not confirming it
True
mark merrens wrote: you are also culpable here - you should have ensured it was written into your contract prior to signing
True - I assumed it was in writing already so that would be ok.
mark merrens wrote: The employer is also being an arse and not showing you any respect.
I'm inclined to believe that they didn't agree it actually, but I can't be 100% sure. Agents tend to lie a lot.
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Then you should insist that agent pays the difference and should inform the employer if they say no. Most employers will not want to deal with agencies that are screwing over the employee.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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Worth a try, thanks
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