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The option being what? Become an accountant? Or a salesman?
Or a Real Estate agent?
Just because they have long career arcs?
And spend the rest of my life hating my life. I don't think so.
I've done other things. They weren't as good to me, and they weren't a good fit.
Nor should someone choose to work with technology if they don't love it on some level. It's hard, especially if you are pushing your limits.
IT, Love it or leave it.
_____________________________
Give a man a mug, he drinks for a day. Teach a man to mug...
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I'm 61 and still programming full time. The only other thing I am qualified to do is "Starship Commander" but there are few available openings right now...
Anyway, if a ship doesn't come and get me off this rock of a planet, I'll more than likely be found DAC (dead at computer)
Steve Naidamast
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@ix.netcom.com
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I'm 54 and I'm not the oldest programmer on the floor, but its a large Bank company. In general, you max out on the pay scale by 40. So if you want a pay raise after 40 you need to go into management. Now if you work for a good company and enjoy the work, stick with it. You only get better with age.
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How about a programming manager?
That's the category I've gotten myself into. Absolutely hated the times I was a manager and did not have time to program.
But your point is taken. Moving into management is a logical progression from a salary point of view, but for me, the incentive was to get out from under the idiot managers I had worked for almost all of my career. Now I can be the idiot manager benevolent, understanding director of my minions, that I wished I had had.
Older programmers have different responsibilities than younger ones. We're no longer able to crank for 50+ hours on a project, we're expected to show up for dinner and spend some time with the kids. Bills must be paid, yard and house maintenance has to be done, etc.
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
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Hey! I take offense to be refered as a graybeard, although my graybeard is mostly white now. Most of the graybeard developers in the over 55 crowd have now become the "Terminally Un-Employed". They have been jettisoned by companies as too expensive and have been replaced by offshore developers. Mainly here in the U.S. But the funny revelation is that when companies run into serious development problems encountered by outsourcing or inexperienced developers, whom do they call? The graybeards! So when you see a white bearded, white haired developer, in a white robe, say hi to me, Gandalf the White!
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I am a couple weeks away from turning 50 years old. I have spent 30 of those years working as a programmer, starting part-time in my sophomore year of college. I've done everything from microcontroller applications where the entire program was 40 instructions to multiprocessor, multithreaded behemoths a team and I took 20 man-years to develop.
In my experience there are two types of programmers out there. The first type are like me. They like developing software, and some of them are actually good at it. The fact that they're able to earn a living doing something they enjoy is a nice side benefit.
The second type uses programming as a gateway to other things. They don't particularly like programming, even though some of them are capable. Instead, they're using engineering as a path into management. In a lot of cases they don't have the people skills or aren't pretty enough for a direct attack on the management career track.
I think you're seeing a lot of the second type. It's unusual for that type of programmer to still be in a technical track past their early 30's. By then they've graduated to technical supervision, at which point they do a lateral shift into marketing or some other dreadful hellhole of a job.
I've seen this more times than I can count. I work with a guy now who started as an intern. He was a nice kid and fairly smart. His code was pretty good. 15 years later he's a 'director' (mid-level manager), in charge of about 15 people. He has a reputation as an ambitious empire builder.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Software can be a life career...but you have to accept the price. The price has several components:
-- You must become a well-regarded specialist in a sub-discipline of programming that won't be obsoleted by developments.
-- You must go to work for a company that needs and respects such specialists.
-- You must renounce all hope of ever gaining rank in your employer's Table of Organization.
-- You must accept that the stratosphere of salary and perquisites is reserved for managers, directors, and so forth, and is therefore inaccessible to you.
My own experience might help to illustrate this. I'm 59. I specialize in real-time simulation, with a "sideline" in the programming of exotic hardware interfaces. My employer, a large defense contractor, has an ongoing need for such specialists; we build the laboratories in which tactical software products are tested. I've been doing what I do for thirty years, and will probably be encouraged to keep doing it until I feel like retiring.
I didn't make a conscious decision to adopt this specialty; I "lucked into it" when I was hired by another defense contractor, some thirty years ago. But it suited me, and I decided to stay with it. Though I'm occasionally given "team leader" positions, my name never appears on a managerial chart. That suits me, too.
Not everyone can do this, whether for reasons of taste, temperament, or talent. I was told several times over the course of the years that I should expect my trade to pall on me, that I should make provisions for a career shift, and that the real opportunities lie in other fields. But here I am, and I have no regrets. Occupationally, at any rate.
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I completely disagree. I'm 45, still coding, still current and will remain so until they stick tubes in me on my deathbed. In fact, I'm at yet another crossroads in my career (there are many on the technology road) - stick with .NET, which is my bread and butter, or switch to Android and open source-based development? I'm making the move to mobile development, and right now that means Android development for me. I started out over 20 years ago as a C/UNIX guy, then moved to Windows, then moved to .NET, and will remain open minded and flexible as technology choices and trends dictate (or interest me). So my advice to the young 'uns - keep developing, keep learning, do what you love. There will only be an increasing need for talent going forward, especially as that talent becomes senior-level.
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<blockquote class="FQ"><div class="FQA">gggustafson wrote:</div>To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40?</blockquote>
I am 34 and now I have 25 years of programming experience. (I started at the age of 9 in primary school).
They call me "youngster"... because I am the youngest developer in this company. We have all shades of gray from dark grey to white, whatever you like.
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I'm still at it 30+ years later, loving it and approaching 60. Oh, and I am definitely a graybeard!
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I'll be 50 this year and am still programming and getting paid for it - mostly in VB.Net, mind you! That's a step up from the IBM mainframes and punched cards I started on in school at age 14 though.
Of course I am 1/3 owner of the company now. Got 4 of the top 10 Fortune 500 companies as clients and enough 5 year contracts being re-signed that I don't have to worry about new clients.
I still find programming a lot more stimulating that managing people or businesses. And I am also hopeless at hiring junior programmers so am destined to be the main programmer for the company despite having 5 staff with either degrees or diplomas in IT or Computer Science working on our help desk.
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Nonsense. I've been at it for 35 years and will continue for another 15 or 20.
-Max
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There are 5 of us in my group. Two of us are 51. One is mid-50s, two are mid- to late-40s (not sure exactly). We also have one contractor who is well past "retirement age". But we're doing SCADA, so that may skew differently than other specialties, and there's zero turnover. Thinking about programmers in other areas of the department (or contractors), it seems like most are in their late 20s to late 30s.
I would think that a lot of programmers would have zero desire to take a management path, so would wind up programming until they retire. My title in the payroll system has the letters "mgr" in it, but there's nobody under me. That's the only way to get the pay grade.
I hope that programming is a long term career, because I hope to be here for 20 more years.
Broadening the scope, is anything a long term career? Don't engineers wind up as managers after they've proven themselves? Of course, engineering managers are still "Professional Engineers", and young engineers can't become PEs unless they work for managers who are PEs. Perhaps engineering management is still engineering, even if you never touch a drawing.
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Most programmers are young because most programming jobs have been around for less than 10 years. Honestly, how many programmers do you think it took to run the world before the web, before dot.coms, before there were 3 PCs in every house and every car had a dozen microcontrollers? In 1981, when I went to work, there were about 14,000 people doing programming full time in the US (according to EE Times). Now there are something like 3 million.
That said, age discrimination is a huge problem in programming. Managers who are themselves young programmers don't perceive the value of experience. They put a premium instead on knowing this years' wizzy new language or API, because that's their own personal strength, and we always like to hire ourselves, because we are so very smart.
Consequently, while the best programmers are about ten times as productive as the worst ones, the salary range is only about 2x. Programming is becoming like nursing; a great paying job right out of school, but 20 years later you're making the same wage, and new hires make as much as you do.
Programming is a very portable job. All you need is a $400 laptop and the Internet. So the competition is worldwide. The workforce in India and China is even younger than it is here, mostly having been educated since about 2001. That's going to keep wages down.
We seem to be a variable cost too. When the economy turns down, no new dev projects start up for 2 years. If you are standing up when the music stops, you're screwed. If you're on a project, you don't even notice the downturn because you're working nights and weekends and the money is good.
The urge to become a manager == the urge to make more money next year than last year, to feed your growing family or growing obsession with stuff. Same thing for the urge to leave programming and do something else.
The real question is, why would even a young person want to enter the profession? The answer needs to be, "Because you're geeky and you love to write code." If the answer was, "I heard the wages are great and you can get rich at some startup.", then I wish you good luck. Save money for your behavioral health therapist, 'cause you're heading for one hellacious midlife crisis.
[]
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From my personal experience, your claim that "In 1981, when I went to work, there were about 14,000 people doing programming full time in the US (according to EE Times)." is flawed. In 1981, CSC employed more people than that.
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I'm 66 and I'm still making a decent living in programming. I love what I do, and so the job is never a chore. So, programming can be a long term career if you want it to be. 
Fletcher Glenn
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Like gggustafson, I have worked in the computer arena for a LONG time, 35 years. From my perspective, one starts with a calling, the purpose God created you for and empowers you to accomplish. To accomplish your calling, there are major track(s), your career(s), to be followed. These are your short- and long-range plans, to include milestones of accomplishment. A job is the immediate activity your are carrying out as you move toward your next milestone.
From this perspective, one does not see any job, nor even career, as the only thing one will engage in during one's life. Rather, they are means to an end. So, yes, programming is not something one should plan on doing for the rest of one's life.
Still, one does not have to depart the computer arena. After all these years, I am still working as an in-demand technical professional. Here is the general track my career has taken:
- told what to do and how to do it
- given problems to solve
- expected to figure out what problems to solve
- form and lead teams in discovering and resolving difficult problems
Two other tracks are mentioned in a slide from a talk of mine:
http://informationanthology.net/CareerMentor/ConcerningSuccessfulCareers_Thursday/Slide7.JPG[^]
Growth entails risk. All moves in life must consider that risk and account for it.
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I have been doing application design and programming for over 30 years and I love what I do. I can't classify myself as a graybeard programmer as I am female. But I have earned every non-red hair on my head. I truly feel that the years of experience and range of projects I h ave worked on give me a rich knowledgebase to draw from. I have worked free-lance and for corporate teams. I am at the best of both worlds now. Working for a large company, but outside of IT and with the freedom to work "outside of the box" and to determine my own development strategies. I love it!! I have thought about going into management, but I like the design and coding too much. I feel the real challenge is to be constantly learning and trying new things. I see this as a long-term career as I would not want to do anything else until I retire.
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30, 40 years ago there weren't any young programmers, compared to today.
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gggustafson wrote: I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path.
Aw, but it is, just not for everyone. To me, it's a perfect long-term career path; one is always learning
gggustafson wrote: So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties?
There's a lot more of them, then there was of us in our time; there weren't that much programmers to begin with. Our base grew with the introduction of Delphi, VB6 and Java, but it exploded once .NET and mobile apps came into view.
gggustafson wrote: As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.).
A programmer is still that, whatever his/her role in the organization is.
gggustafson wrote: I am cautioning young programmers to beware.
Caution is always a good thing
gggustafson wrote: Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
It's a good start; structured problem-solving, logic and patience come in handy in every trade. And yes, some stay long enough to grow a grey beard.
But no, it's not a form of retirement, if that's what you mean 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
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Programmer develops itself quickly as Director for other programmers
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Didn't CodeProject do a survey on this subject some time ago? I seem to recall there were a significant number of members with careers in IT lasting over 30 years. I'm one of them (36 years) and I've never been out of work for more than a few weeks. And I still enjoy programming as much as when I started. That was back in the year that Bill Gates founded Microsoft (whatever happened to them?).
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I know there's a few of you around. Has anyone tried using an ebow [^] or any other method to cause infinite sustain on a string? I used to play guitar until I lost most use of my left hand. Now I'd like to try it again as Ms. Wizardzz is picking it up herself. I wouldn't mind being able to build one of these, too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gizmo[^]
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. "
— Hunter S. Thompson
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Oh John Martyn used the Gizmotron! Amazing stuff on an acoustic guitar!!
John Martyn - I'd Rather be the Devil[^]
I've seen Martin Simpson use the ebow with a slide on an acoustic guitar and it is very  .
I've always wanted to play around with an ebow! 
The environment that nurtures creative programmers kills management and marketing types - and vice versa. - Orson Scott Card
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I'm going to pick one up tomorrow. The Ms. is out of town this weekend so I'll be in the basement working on music the whole weekend. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
I like the sound Munaf Rayani gets here with it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czmgu74dbec[^]
He tapes it on at 0:52, plays it with a slide at 1:52.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. "
— Hunter S. Thompson
modified on Thursday, July 7, 2011 1:50 PM
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