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_Damian S_ wrote: Trouble is, you are probably not getting the best candidates put forward, as a lot of people who are experienced developers simply won't tolerate this kind of behaviour...
Well tough titty. If they do get through and come in for an interview they get yet more tests. The fact we go to so much effort to ensure we get good people is a reason applicants should want to work here. If people come in with the idea that they are too good, too experienced to sit a test they wont get far.
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Josh Gray wrote: Well tough titty. If they do get through and come in for an interview they get yet more tests.
Just quietly, if that's the attitude that shines through during the process, I'm fairly sure I know what my response would be!! 
--------------------------------------------------------
Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
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_Damian S_ wrote: Just quietly, if that's the attitude that shines through during the process, I'm fairly sure I know what my response would be!! Wink
Interviews are about finding out if a person will be a good addition to the company. We want people to write code so we ask them to write some code as part of the interview process as well as a few other things. I really cant see the problem. We do this for grads and very experienced people
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Does every new hire in company have to take a position specific test, or just developers ?
Did all the managers have to take management tests before they were hired ?
...cmk
The idea that I can be presented with a problem, set out to logically solve it with the tools at hand, and wind up with a program that could not be legally used because someone else followed the same logical steps some years ago and filed for a patent on it is horrifying.
- John Carmack
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cmk wrote: Does every new hire in company have to take a position specific test, or just developers ?
One other department does similar testing.
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Au contraire - the people that are good enough to get to work somewhere where they are treated like people and not cattle will avoid you like the plague and you will end up with a team of geeks who canpass tests but are probably crap when it comes to thinking outside the oblong
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point?
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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Father Christmas wrote: Au contraire - the people that are good enough to get to work somewhere where they are treated like people and not cattle will avoid you like the plague and you will end up with a team of geeks who canpass tests but are probably crap when it comes to thinking outside the oblong
Thankfully the reality here is far from what you describe.
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CP has a simple test it gives people applying. I don't see the big deal. Can you imagine some of the people who'd apply to CP ?
Christian Graus
Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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We go to most of the uni's in Australia and do presentations to the final year students telling them how absolutely fantastic we are. You can probably imagine how many applicants we get. We also run a competition at the uni careers day where they write some code and someone gets an iPhone or something similar
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Josh Gray wrote: We go to most of the uni's in Australia
So you are looking for graduates and getting them to do the tests... that's vastly different to expecting experienced developers to undertake the same tests...
--------------------------------------------------------
Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
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_Damian S_ wrote: So you are looking for graduates and getting them to do the tests... that's vastly different to expecting experienced developers to undertake the same tests...
Everyone gets the same tests. Their experience level is taken into account when considering the results though
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I guess I just have a very dim view of this kind of thing when 2 hours into an interview answering all manner of technical questions about the project that I was (supposedly) going to be working on, I realised that I was simply providing free consulting for them and terminated the interview and promptly left...
--------------------------------------------------------
Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
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_Damian S_ wrote: I guess I just have a very dim view of this kind of thing when 2 hours into an interview answering all manner of technical questions about the project that I was (supposedly) to be working on, I realised that I was simply providing free consulting for them and terminated the interview and promptly left...
When you get 200+ applicants a month you just cant interview them all.
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Josh Gray wrote: 200+ applicants a month
Holy snapping duck pooh!
--------------------------------------------------------
Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
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No - but you can read their CVs and pick the top X to interview.
And this position had, i think, two suitable applicants (through this agency)
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point?
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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Good on ya!
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point?
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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Because they don't know how to tell a good developer from a bad developer. If you take their test and fail then you're bad (which is not correct but is they way they'd see it).
If you want to work at this company then you'd probably be ok taking the test, however meaningless it is. If you don't really care for the company then don't apply for the position (and thus the test actually did serve a purpose).
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'cwpt in my case it was the Agency setting the test not the employer - presumably because the agency staff are as thick as a three week old thickshake and wouldn't know a line of C# from a pile of pooh.
I igenuinely had someone from an IT recruitment agency recently ask me if I knew UB .Net
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point?
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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danialgibson wrote: Because they don't know how to tell a good developer from a bad developer. If you take their test and fail then you're bad (which is not correct but is they way they'd see it).
That's not all there is to it, see below:
danialgibson wrote: If you want to work at this company then you'd probably be ok taking the test, however meaningless it is. If you don't really care for the company then don't apply for the position (and thus the test actually did serve a purpose).
Quote Selected Text
Absolutely 
We always ask for sample code from prospective developers, nothing demanding.*
There are several objectives behind it:
1) Establish whether the applicant can actually write code/analyse & solve a problem (I've encountered many people with impressive-looking CV's who can't).
2) Give us a glimpse of their thought processes (you'd be surprised how creative some people can be on the simplest of tasks, some make mountains out of molehills, some have surprised & impressed with how simply & elegantly they solve an already simple task).
3) Determine the applicant's level of motivation/enthusiasm (we want motivated people who take an interest in what we do, if they're not motivated enough to perform a very simple task to get the job, they're not likely to be motivated to put much into their work).
4) Eliminate anyone who can't follow simple instructions (the vast majority of applicants simply see a job ad & automatically send off their CV without taking the time to consider where they're applying to or what they'll be doing if they actually get the job - we don't want to hire mindless automatons, or waste our time interviewing them).
* For a task where the typical solution was less than 40 lines of code (including declarations & comments), we had one response with "... Given that this task will require a fair amount of work ... assuming that I meet or exceed your criteria ...".
My response to that was: If you think this task requires a "fair amount of work", I can guarantee that you do not meet, let alone exceed, our criteria.
T-Mac-Oz
"When I'm ruler of the universe ... I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I'm just as frustrated as you are. It turns out to be a non-trivial problem." - Linus Torvalds
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They're probably trying to cull out the wannabes early. Why are you concerned? You know you smoked it, else why would you apply for a senior position? At the worst, your code probably made the rest of the applicants look like idiots. Look on the bright side; if you don't happen to get an offer, you can always bill the agency for two hours of coding.
I know it's insulting, an assault on your integrity. But try to see it from their side. Agencies - well, headhunter tribes - are a dime a dozen. Anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves recruiting specialists, and probably get away with it. People who work in HR are not the sharpest tools in the drawer, as we all know. One way to become recognized as a credible source is to pre-screen applicants so that the client never sees the obvious losers that would be pounding on the door if they resorted to the classified ads. Visit the VB forum for examples.
I've been asked to take a test a couple of times, and I don't resent it. I know from personal experience that there are some excellent fakes out there. I had one when I was with Northrop, when I was tasked to hire 120 engineers in 30 days - yes, they still believe in the 40 ships theory... The guy knew all the buzzwords, and was current on all the latest trade magazines. He was a self-starting go-getter who could have been a valuable asset to our team. So I hired him. After two months he hadn't drawn a single line on a piece of paper, so I did some digging. The university he listed on his application as the grantor of his BSEE never heard of him. The high school he graduated from, the same. So I sat him down for a talk.
To his credit, he didn't deny his lies. He always wanted to be an engineer, but never had the chance to obtain the education that serves as a foundation for us all - a degree in engineering doesn't make one an engineer, but it is a license to begin learning engineering. I had to let him go, but I would have happily written a letter of recommendation to any school of engineering for him. What balls!
The point of all that is that we can all be fooled, and there are some excellent phonies in this world. It's not unreasonable for an agency to ask for a small demonstration of your ability before they risk their reputation recommending you to their client.
I wish you luck, and hope for the best outcome for you.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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I personally dont mind taking a test, but the things some of the clients ask you to do within a given timeframe can be completely befuddling. I had an interview for senior developer at this bank - one of the questions they asked was for me to write a sudoku puzzle solver!!! i dont even plat sudoku! 
No one knows the things of a man save the spirit of that man, likewise no one knows the things of God save the Spirit of God whom we have received. He who is joined to the Lord, is ONE Spirit with him(Jesus) - 1Cor 2:10-16 & 6:17
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What's as bad is when the head hunter doesn't know sh*t from Shinola. I'm a technical writer who started when strings of ones and zeros were considered a high order language, and I even have a couple of books and papers on SDLC documentation.
Anyway, Ms. ShitForBrains calls me to ask if I've ever documented widgets and do I have experience with APIs. She doesn't know what either is, and after I explain it to her, she decides I can't do it and doesn't submit my CV.
She's probably right. There is a difference in documenting the stability augmentation system for the space shuttle and some animation for yet another social networking system.
Go figure.
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Jay Reidy wrote: Anyway, Ms. ShitForBrains calls me to ask if I've ever documented widgets and do I have experience with APIs. She doesn't know what either is, and after I explain it to her, she decides I can't do it and doesn't submit my CV.
Yes, we all come across this - unfortunately. 
Kevin
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We're doing a 'stupid' test too.
Why? Because I don't want to spend several weeks or months cleaning someone else's mess.
We've had a lot of so called 'professionals' coming in who can't program for ****.  .
But a half hour coding excersize should be enough though.
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