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Thanks for bringing some intelligence to this chat. I'm actually a fan of Musk and welcome any criticism as long as it's not politically charged, biased, etc. Nobody is perfect. I simply wish people wouldn't hate based on what TV tells them to hate when it's the thing to do.
I upvoted you btw, because at least you're talking like you paid attention.
Jeremy Falcon
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I changed my reply from millionaires to billionaires because anyone who had bought a house in the 1990s is probably a millionaire today merely because of the inflation in the price of homes. (My home was NOT in California which is seeing hyper-inflation in home prices.)
To add to that, maxed-out contributions to 401(k) and purchasing company stock through stock purchase plans add to one’s wealth. Anybody in the tech business in the US can become a millionaire by the time he retires, though a million dollars nowadays may not mean what it once did.
Anyone who starts his 401(k) plan at age 22 and continues for 45 years would certainly be a self-made millionaire and an ethical and honest one at that.
I compare these situations to those in power at Oracle or SAP. False promises that
are never kept, continuously forcing upgrades on customers that waste time and money, etc. SAP customers who have customized some of SAP functions to meet their specific requirements are told all of that would have to go by the wayside when they move to the cloud. What happens to their business? The attitude is: cut your feet if they don’t fit the shoe I have sold you.
I was working for a high-tech company that had 5 customers in 1996. The total number of customers it had in its entire history is maybe 1200 and its product portfolio over the company’s life was 160. Our revenue was over $800 million so we were a cash cow. A Big 4 consultant recommended that we install SAP. If I had gone along with that, I could have become an SAP consultant a year later and billed out at $300 an hour. I couldn’t see why the company needed SAP. We were the reference site for all semiconductor companies without semiconductor foundries in the Bay Area for our hardware and software vendors. But the consultant asked for $13 million to advise me on how to implement SAP. Right there you could see the ethical conflict.
Read about Jeff Bezos’s warehouse workers who can’t even take a bathroom break. Read about the UPS drivers who carry a bottle to pee into. Read the horror stories
About the Oracle ERP implementation disaster at Birmingham City Council (UK). Then tell me that billionaires earn their money ethically. I will then know which way your ethical compass points.
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Vivi Chellappa wrote: And Elon Musk with his self-driving automobiles.
I don't think the self-driving "feature" of Elon's cars is the main selling point.
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Just a feeling or can it be proven?
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I don't have a report off the top of my head, because only people without experience carry around facts all day long IMO. If we're being honest, most people just Google crap and pretend to be experts.
But, unlike those that have zero experience in the field I've spent decades studying millionaires either in real life, in books, or online. I also know a couple in real life, including some in my close family (as in plural). Also, one of my brother's buddies growing up became one through a lawsuit. So, I've also seen firsthand just how full of it and dishonest some people are when it comes to money (not him for the lawsuit, from people around him). For instance, I watched how my mother changed in how she treated said dude once he became wealthy. I've also spent time in Beverly Hills studying people, so I know exactly what the trust fund babies act like. Doesn't take a genius to figure out who earned it.
But do you think most people will go to where the rich are to study them? No, most people online are just fake, thus my lack of inclination to entertain nonsense these days. It's always the same old crap that's rooted in jealousy and hate (not you man, the other post). There's always gonna be some dude who hasn't even left his house pretending to be an expert online because some stupid news story told them what to think.
While I'm not ultra wealthy myself (yet) I've made more than most people in my field that I've met, given the fact I have no college degree and not working for a FAANG company. And that was 100% proportionate to how much effort I've put into my education and ability to do my job and invest. So, given the fact the personal experience is anecdotal, I don't solely rely on my experience alone for that stat. It could've been a book I read a decade ago. But, it did sick with me. It might've been The Millionaire Next Door. I'd have to read it again to be certain; it's been a long time since I've read it. Good book, though. Anyway, it's common knowledge amongst the wealthy; only the poor think it was magic to justify the fact they'd rather play video games, etc.
If you need an online source, even Forbes (which is usually wrong IMO  ) agrees: 10 Habits Of Self-Made Millionaires. You'll have to read it as the title alone doesn't elude to the point.
Also, if you need another online source, peeps like Dave Ramsey would agree with what I'm saying. He's interviewed 1,000s of millionaires and will say the same. Just go start watching his YT videos.
Anyway, thanks for actually asking. Sorry if this came off as poopy, but it's because I am. Most people (not you) aren't here to genuinely learn. Like even if I talk about investing here, people just wanna talk about themselves and give me advice despite the fact I can tell I've made more money than them having figured out stuff they haven't yet when it comes to trading, etc. It's all ego and nonsense. I will give you this stat though, I've lost 60K in crypto listening to broke arse clowns who are fake and pretended to be experts though. Don't worry, I'm ok... unlike these fake peeps online. But still, that's a lesson you only want to learn once.
I've seen enough to instantly spot the BS these days. Including running a meetup group about Forex while I lived in California. Maybe I'm a lousy teacher, but I lost interest in running it when peeps where there to brag, etc. despite them having never made money.
So, I'm just grumpy these days. And I always will be until I find my peeps.
Jeremy Falcon
modified yesterday.
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Lol, that much text, just to tell 'I can't prove it'.
Please do not take it as offense, but what you write it's simply what you denounce.
Now let us forget it 
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You clearly didn't read the link man. Don't ruin a good thing by proving to me you're just like the rest of them. 
I gave you THREE citations. THREE.
And if we're going to play this game, you can't prove I'm wrong. Do better.
Jeremy Falcon
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How many millionaires have you personally talked to and learned from by the way? One... None? I bet it was none. But that won't stop you from acting like this online. I just gave you very high quality information and you wrote it off. It's a waste of my time, clearly.
Jeremy Falcon
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Please excuse me if you feel attacked/misunderstood by me. That was not my intention in any way.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: For instance, I watched how my mother changed in how she treated said dude once he became wealthy.
And it doesn't need a big (a.k.a. rich) amount of money to see that.  
Jeremy Falcon wrote: I've lost 60K in crypto listening to broke arse clowns who are fake and pretended to be experts though.
Down 18k€ partially due to listen who I didn't have to. Not everything lost yet, because I didn't sell, companies still exist, but by all means a good teacher.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: Including running a meetup group about Forex while I lived in California
Forex is only playing with exchange currencies of different lands? Or does it include more? (Just curious, I know I could google but I want to hear it with you instead of a out-of-the-box tipified answer)
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote: And it doesn't need a big (a.k.a. rich) amount of money to see that.
Amen to that.
Nelek wrote: Down 18k€ partially due to listen who I didn't have to. Not everything lost yet, because I didn't sell, companies still exist, but by all means a good teacher.
Funny thing is man, crypto is following the same exact bust boom cycle the web did in the early 2000s and late 90s. It's a tech that isn't going anywhere; it does need to be priced accurately. It's the tulip craze all over again. And, the bust cycle will weed out the losers/phonies in the market. Which is a good thing because it'll never be taken seriously until the phonies are gone.
The lesson I had to learn the hard way is, the "less intelligent" the person they more sure they are of something they know little about. They can be very convincing, even if you know better. So, at least you're not alone.
Nelek wrote: Forex is only playing with exchange currencies of different lands? Or does it include more? (Just curious, I know I could google but I want to hear it with you instead of a out-of-the-box tipified answer)
This is why I like you man, you're smart. Short answer is yes. Since the likelihood of using using a one-world currency any time soon is zilch, it's an important market for the global economy to help us price imports, exports, travel, etc. Any time you go to a currency exchange shop when visiting another country, they're tapping into the Forex market.
Of course as with any markets you also have derivatives, such as a futures market as well. But, there's a lot "less" to it than the stock market. For instance, there's no concept of options in Forex. There's interest that can be paid out, but you don't really get dividends, perks from holding stock, etc. But, it's by far the most liquid market on the planet, for reasons I can elaborate on if you really want. Slippage is not an issue in the Forex spot market. Shorting is no big deal because it's cash and easy to borrow against. Which IMO makes it great for trading. For investing, that's a different story though.
The money supply value is essentially the value of a country's economy all rolled up into one. So, kinda like the S&P in that regards but on steroids and fluctuations in it are usually less severe for the popular currencies. Personally, I love it, but it's the wild west compared to more mature market. Event though Forex has been around for a loooooong time, it wasn't opened up to retail traders until relatively recently.
I could go on...  I'm sure an options trader would talk about options all day, etc.
Jeremy Falcon
modified yesterday.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: for reasons I can elaborate on if you really want
I would like to, but not now, I am going through a turbulent time in this moment and I do not want to start anything new, if I can't really focus on what I do (even less if it might imply a risk to my economy).
I already have all what I have and although it is not good to "fire and forget", it is the only thing I can do while focusing in one, two or max three things until it / they get solved.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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That's the smart approach man. Focus on one or two things and master them. Forget the rest... master something and be better than everyone else at it. Wishing you the best of luck with it.
Jeremy Falcon
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Side note, not sure if you ever read about the Tulip market bubble in the 16th-17th century. But it's great story to read up on. This whole concept of freaking out over stupid crap thinking you'll print money has been around forever. Nothing new.
Jeremy Falcon
modified yesterday.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: This whole concept of freaking out over stupid crap thinking you'll print money has been around forever. Nothing new.
No wanting to start a discussion, but I think that's specially the strategy of the US.
Here I might get in the "not informed enough topic that you complain above", though: For me, once the US got out of the "backing money / debts with gold" they got a white card / free ride on pumping the market with new printed bills, everything has been getting wild(er than usually / needed) since that.
It currently is not only a problem with the US, of course, a lot of countries do that, but if I am not wrong they were the first stone causing the lawine.
Note: I am not willing to enter in politics, it is only an additional comment about the affirmation you said.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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So, it's clear you don't take the time to read all my posts before responding. To put this bluntly David, I know exactly who you are. I'm not convinced you have the first clue who I am.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: you have the first clue who I am.
From your replies, you are someone who likes looking down on other people. You have no clue how much of your stuff I've read.
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No dude, I'm just "looking down" on anyone who does nothing but lies, hates, can't understand what they're reading when they argue, and complain. And guess what... that's you bro. 
You're making the world a worse place... so congrats I guess.
Jeremy Falcon
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Oh, and since you won't be bothered to read...
1) I said millionaires. Not billionaires. I mentioned they are not the same thing. You gave 4 examples but 1,000s of every day millionaires made their own way.
2) Don't you dare discredit the work they did simply because they came from a good environment. You make it sound like it's so easy to do it. If that's case... go do it yourself. You won't. You can't. You'll just complain. But, let me share with you a truth... it doesn't matter how much money you have, if you have a good idea and vision AND the ability to execute it... the money will find you.
Of course, you wouldn't know this in all your jealousy.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: you wouldn't know this in all your jealousy
What an 'effin troll.
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Good one dude, you soooooooooooooo got me... Good bye.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Don't you dare discredit the work they did simply because they came from a good environment. You make it sound like it's so easy to do it
Without discrediting them, it does help if you already have a big amount backing you up. The more money you have, the more money you can make or the easier you can make it.
Of course the person has to have some sight for it, it is easy to burn wealth too (there are enough examples out there).
Jeremy Falcon wrote: it doesn't matter how much money you have, if you have a good idea and vision AND the ability to execute it... the money will find you.
and the money to start with is not to be underestimated.
Back in college I had a couple of ideas, I even had a very basic concept / design for one of them. I failed because I didn't had the money to continue the development of a physical prototype and to pay a lawyer to file a good patent (the thing had the potential to make millions in my opinion). I tried to find someone to invest in, but I couldn't, at the end some big companies started something similar, so I gave up.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote: Of course the person has to have some sight for it, it is easy to burn wealth too (there are enough examples out there).
This is what people who know little about money want you to believe. I realize this thread has turned crazy out of of control, but investors are everywhere. If your idea is good enough and you can execute it... the money will find you. You cannot be an introvert and pull it off though, you gotta get out there and talk. Anyone who says otherwise is just sitting behind a computer and never leaving their home.
Hell, I've had coworkers want to invest with me just because I was yapping about trading. Anyone saying they can't is just using excuses with zero real experience.
Nelek wrote: and the money to start with is not to be underestimated.
Again, stop listening to losers who do nothing but hate. They'll poison your mind and waste your time.
Nelek wrote: Back in college I had a couple of ideas, I even had a very basic concept / design for one of them. I failed because I didn't had the money to continue the development of a physical prototype and to pay a lawyer to file a good patent (the thing had the potential to make millions in my opinion). I tried to find someone to invest in, but I couldn't, at the end some big companies started something similar, so I gave up.
You failed because you weren't educated or driven enough. You can (and should) start any business cheaply. And I promise you that you didn't talk to or know any other entrepreneurs or investors. You can start just about any business for less than 1K, unless it's a brick and mortar store.
In your specific case, where a patent needed to be filed, you could've done supplementary business to support it. Any patent wouldn't be more than 10k-20k tops for a single patent. You could've pooled from friends and family. You could've taken on a partner since 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing. You know who I learned that from? A wealthy man in real estate who was one of my mentors - for free. Just a good guy sharing the love.
And assuming this was before 3D printing, manufacturing a product is the worst starter business to do unless you, again, know people. Which means, stop being introverted. Even if you had the prototype, you'll run into a lot more issues with the manufacturing process if you're new. Again, a supplementary business would've helped to teach you the basics of business first.
Also, from my understanding, you don't need a working prototype for the patent. You could've just gotten the patent first and then start talking to people about it to help you out.
If you don't think these guys had to be creative even with a "start" to get where they are, you're letting the haters and losers poison your mind from its raw creativity. The truth is, you just gave up. Starting a business is not for everyone and that's cool; just don't go hating on those that do (not saying you, you know who) just because they made it. Hate them for other reasons. 
Jeremy Falcon
modified 6hrs 10mins ago.
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