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As many Christians - I live in the same country where the Vatican is and I can tell you, it means basically nothing. It's people - finding excuses to massacrate other people.
Geek code v 3.12
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- r++>+++ y+++*
Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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Sorry, OG, but a Muslim believes in what Quran says not what they think Quran would ask them. I live in Pakistan, I am an Ahmadi Muslim, and I every single moment of my life have to face a threat where my class mates (yes, my classmates) are always ready to kill me to earn heaven, to fulfill their demands of Jihad.
I, pass my every single day with a wish that when I travel these 100km to go to study, I would come back home safely without anyone trying to stop me, and say "You are Ahmadi, you must be killed!".
If someone is a Muslim, haves faith in Islam, must never would forcibly make anyone other have same faith and belief as he has. Mark Twain said well, "We are animals who love their neighbours and would protect him from any threat, but will cut his throat if their religious beliefs are not alike". This is the only problem in our planet. If there were no fights over one's religion there would have been no wars at all. Muslims fight with Hindus, Hindus fight with Budhists and so on and so forth. Just to prove that their own God is the real one.
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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We'd still have wars, we'd be forced to make up different reasons though.
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Most of these wars will still be between Muslims to Christians, Hindus to Sikhs, Budhists to Muslims and so on. Having a nationality is other way to tell what you religion is. Indian? Hindua! Pakistani? Muslim, Thai? Budhist. Now if they start a war, if would be Pakistani people are having a war with Indians. In real, it is Muslims and Hindus are having a war. Get the point?
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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Afzaal Ahmad Zeeshan wrote: Having a nationality is other way to tell what you religion is.
No, it isn't!
What religion am I?
Why would you assume that?
Did you think WWI and WWII were fought with different religions on each side?
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WW1 was fought between Britains and Turkey, and their allies. Did you know, that provoked Muslims and Christians all over the globe to accompany ones of their own belief? Turkish people asked Muslim world to come for their help.
Khilafat Movement[^] was started just to protect the holy and sacred places of Turkey and to maintain the Khilafat (goverment) in the hands of Muslims. OriginalGriff, do you still want any more evidence that humans have been using religion for their own cause?
Since the age of Pharoah, all the way down to this age. Religion, which was really just to tell how one worships his creator, is now being used to provoke young ones to hate others.
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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Um.
Not in the parts of the world where they read history, I'm afraid.
WWI started on 28th July 1914 when the Austro-Hungarians declared war on Serbia and subsequently invaded.
Turkey didn't join as a German ally until 5th November 1914, declaring war on France, Britain and Russia.
Religion was not the central division of either of the two world wars...
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That is a clear evidence that no one on this planet would start a war saying, "In the name of my Lord I am throwing this harpoon over your land!". They will fight for saying that there has been something fishy in between them.
I am not historian and surely you would know a lot more than me in this field OriginalGriff. But as far as things seem to be, religion is the common factor people start to hate others. Not the dominant one, but a reasonable factor it is. History is written by the people of their own land, you will find just a few cases where historians and scholars are not having double standards. My own teacher, is a historian and a scholar (as far as he says) and he spreads hate toward other people and we have no right to say anything here... How can you say that things would get better, when the people with power are the ones who right the history themself. Hatred doesnot end, it just converts from one community to another.
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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Afzaal Ahmad Zeeshan wrote: But as far as things seem to be, religion is the common factor people start to hate others. Not the dominant one, but a reasonable factor it is.
Most war has been started over land, or power, both of which give the holder wealth.
There have been a few holy crusades, but generally about wealth.
Religion simply gives those in charge a means of recruiting and controlling people to fight for them.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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Wealth they already have (what do you think they're giving away to their soldiers?), they need power, and entertainment by killing of other kind.
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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Afzaal Ahmad Zeeshan wrote: Wealth they already have (what do you think they're giving away to their soldiers?)
A tiny fraction of the spoils of war, if they paid them at all.
Far easier to say you must fight for us because your God has told me you should. Why do you think armies throughout history have always marched with a healthy compliment of priests and ministers?
Religion is all about control, and it only works through fear; I've had a chat with god and he's told me if you don't do what I want he wants then he's gonna get ya. After you are dead.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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chriselst wrote: I've had a chat with god and he's told me if you don't do what I want he wants then he's gonna get ya. After you are dead.
That isn't religion. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I didn't say it was, but that is (an example of) how religion is used to control people.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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chriselst wrote: how religion is used to control people.
There are a few examples from history, but the vast majority, 99%+, of religious people are not controlled by religion.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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The vast majority of people do not fight in wars either, which is the topic in hand.
But I disagree that most religious people are not controlled by someone using religion.
For example, how many people (back to parents again) mutilate the genitals of their young children because a man has told them that their god wants them to do it.
That's a fairly f***ed up thing to go along with if you ask me.
Then you have those who mutilate the genitals and then suck them. No more god for you, you cannot be trusted with one.
Mind you, I think those who let their god control what they can eat and when or how are ridiculous too.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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chriselst wrote: But I disagree that most religious people are not controlled by someone using religion.
You gave a couple of examples and I get your point. However, to say that religion controls people implies that if they did not have religion they would all be serial killers since religion teaches us (most religions at least) to love and serve others. It's ridiculous to claim people cannot act appropriately on their own, without religion "controlling" them.
And in your example, it's still a choice. If your religion says you should not drink alcohol you are not being controlled, you still have choice. 
In fact, laws and government control people way more than religion does. If my religion says not to drink and I do, so what? There's no consequence to me. However, if I speed and the government catches me then I have to pay a fine, go to jail, etc. Government controls way more than religion does.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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You seem to be talking about the modern / Western world.
The discussion was about wars throughout history.
The view was presented that religion was the reason for the wars, ie that those waging war were fighting for religious ideology.
My arguments against that was those waging war did so for other reasons and then used religion to control those fighting for them.
In a modern, Western army where those fighting have signed up and are paid then that is not true.
Throughout history I would say it was very much the truth.
In current wars in other parts of the world I would say it was true. How else do you explain the large numbers willing to become suicide bombers in ISIL for example? They are presented with the option that has come from god, blow yourself up and get the rewards from him in the next life or don't, in which case he has told us to kill you, or your family, or he will punish you in the next life.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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chriselst wrote: The discussion was about wars throughout history.
You're right. I was broadening the context as it sounded like the conversation had gone that way.
chriselst wrote: in which case he has told us to kill you, or your family, or he will punish you in the next life.
Playing devil's advocate here, I think they teach that you will be rewarded in the next life if you kill in gods name but I don't think they teach you will be punished if you don't become a suicide bomber.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I thought that it has been shown that pressure is applied to "encourage" participation, you know like become a bomber or we will murder your family
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start
Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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You clearly didn't go to a Irish Catholic School! 
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OriginalGriff wrote: You clearly didn't go to a Irish Catholic School!
Correct. And I get your point. 
Just saying that religion, as a whole, is not what was suggested.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Religion is just one excuse: people can hate you because you paint your fingernails pink, or wear your hair long, or live in a bigger house then them, or don't live in a house at all, or like to drink, or have sex with people of the same gender.
Not all of the world pays any more than lip service to religion.
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A few of these are due to double standards, and some again due to religous beliefs.
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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You need to read the last line of the guys Bio. QUICKLY!
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Obligatory XKCD[^]
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