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Sentenryu19-Sep-13 0:44

19-Sep-13 0:44

That's actually a law in my country. At least for 50 years, then it becomes public domain. Fun fact, the law is 30 years old and granted protection from the date it was published, so no code has ever falen in public domain yet =p

I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)

"Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241

"'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"

Rage18-Sep-13 4:26

Rage

18-Sep-13 4:26

Depends on your country, and on your contract.
I, for instance, have no property about what I develop for/in my current company, e.g. the company owns everything. I cannot take that code over to other company, as you did (well, you could say you have "rewritten it" in the new company, so this is highly hypocritical anyway).

~RaGE();

I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb

harold aptroot18-Sep-13 4:28

harold aptroot

18-Sep-13 4:28

Joel Palmer wrote:
do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code?

If you did, would the legal dept allow you to use it?

Joel Palmer18-Sep-13 5:30

18-Sep-13 5:30

We have no legal dept. I signed no agreement.

Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer

Message Removed

18-Sep-13 8:27

N_tro_P

18-Sep-13 8:27

Message Removed

Joel Palmer18-Sep-13 11:15

18-Sep-13 11:15

I think you lost the point. This code was mine before this company relationship started. The legal department vacuum I referred to is my company's. I have no legal agreement with them that says everyting I have ever done is now theirs.

Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer

_Damian S_18-Sep-13 14:28

_Damian S_

18-Sep-13 14:28

Joel Palmer wrote:
This code was mine before this company relationship started.

In which case, you should consider simply providing the company with the compiled dll's as well, not the source code... Even if you give it to them for free rather than selling it, you can rest assured that your libraries will indeed remain yours.

Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's...

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Joel Palmer18-Sep-13 15:53

18-Sep-13 15:53

Good point. I'll keep that in mind.

Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer

Richard MacCutchan18-Sep-13 4:39

Richard MacCutchan

18-Sep-13 4:39

Joel Palmer wrote:
do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code?

The only people who could answer that would be your company's lawyers.

Veni, vidi, abiit domum

Maximilien18-Sep-13 4:55

Maximilien

18-Sep-13 4:55

They pay you.
The code is theirs, the knowledge is yours.

You've told them that it was not a good idea to give away the code, the final decision is with your boss'.

If they find out later on that it was a mistake, it will not be yours.

I'd rather be phishing!

Mike Winiberg18-Sep-13 20:58

Mike Winiberg

18-Sep-13 20:58

Depends on the country and the contract, but in the UK programming is considered a creative art like writing a book in legal terms.

Unless your contract explicitly states that any works you create while working for the employer belong to them, then the copyright and associated IP remain with the author, ie you. Mind youo, some contracts can have some very general terms that you might have to fight in court 8)

I've been lucky and only once have I had to sign away my rights in nearly 40 years of development...

SortaCore18-Sep-13 22:37

SortaCore

18-Sep-13 22:37

I'm also in the UK. My contract said basically, anything I make for the company is their's, including ideas about their systems. Anything that I come up with that isn't related (i.e. a game idea in a mailing company) is mine.

Sentenryu19-Sep-13 0:48

19-Sep-13 0:48

You're luck, the law here states that EVERYTHING developed using ANY resource from the company is company property. That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.

SortaCore19-Sep-13 1:05

SortaCore

19-Sep-13 1:05

I'm curious now, if you were to get a virus because your company antivirus sucked, could you sue them if it ruined your personal files?

("personal" being "entirely created by your resources in your time for your stuff")

Sentenryu19-Sep-13 3:09

19-Sep-13 3:09

I don't think so, you aren't suposed to use company machines to store your files, and they aren't responsible for any non-company machines you plug on their network (most company's actually deny access to the network).

KP Lee19-Sep-13 17:15

KP Lee

19-Sep-13 17:15

Sentenryu wrote:
That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.

OK, now I'm curious.
1. How could the company prove you used their electricity if you never connected to the net with your computer, even if you developed it on their time, not yours? (That, by the way, is theft almost anywhere.)
2. If they can prove you used their electricity, how can they prove it was used to develop your app?
3. If you sell on the web, how can they prove you are the author and have the chain of custody to prove they own it?

Sentenryu20-Sep-13 1:33

20-Sep-13 1:33

KP Lee wrote:
1. How could the company prove you used their electricity if you never connected to the net with your computer, even if you developed it on their time, not yours? (That, by the way, is theft almost anywhere.)

2. If they can prove you used their electricity, how can they prove it was used to develop your app?

3. If you sell on the web, how can they prove you are the author and have the chain of custody to prove they own it?

After reading this i searched by the exact text of the law.

The rough translation of that specific law segment is as follow:

Quote:
§ 2 belong, exclusively, to the employee the rights concerning computer program generated with no relation to the employment contract, and without the use of resources, technological information, trade secrets and business materials, facilities or equipment of the employer, the company or entity with which the employer has the contract to provide services or the like, the service contractor or public agency.

(original text in portuguese, for the case there's another brazilian out there that wants to find this law (it's not easy) http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/Leis/L9609.htm#art16[^])

Looks like it's even more draconian than my teacher told us, the simple fact that you used the company space is enough, and that can be proven with the security cams.

But don't get me wrongh, i love that law, it even protects us from patent trolls!

Quote:

Article 5 The rights on derivations authorized by the rightholder of software, including its economic exploitation, are owned by the person authorized to make them, unless otherwise provided by contract.
[...]
III - the occurrence of similar program to another, pre-existing, when it goes under the functional features of your application, observance of precepts normative and technical, or limitation of alternative forms for its expression;

Basically, no one can claim patents on Lists and things like that, at least not on this country.

KP Lee20-Sep-13 8:53

KP Lee

20-Sep-13 8:53

If I read that right, the employee has exclusive rights to a computer program (s)he creates, if the idea didn't even partially come from the company and company resources weren't used. That's pretty standard in the industry. Even using their electricity would give them the right to claim the program. But first they would have to prove you used their resources to create it. Even with security cameras, I'd think they would have a tough time proving you worked on creating a particular program at work on your own time.

However, considering everything, even here, if you have an idea for a program develop it at home. If you don't have electricity at home work on the laptop until the battery runs low, take it to work, plug it in and work exclusively on company business. You can prove you used it exclusively for work and they would have a tough time proving you were stealing electricity to charge your battery.

ChandraRam18-Sep-13 5:01

ChandraRam

18-Sep-13 5:01

Joel Palmer wrote:
I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years.

Were those created in the company's time or before you were employed by them? If in the company's time, it belongs to them. I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.

Depends on your contract, too, really.

Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon

harold aptroot18-Sep-13 5:12

harold aptroot

18-Sep-13 5:12

ChandraRam wrote:
anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.

Is that even enforceable?

OriginalGriff18-Sep-13 5:27

OriginalGriff

18-Sep-13 5:27

Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.

The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.

Joel Palmer18-Sep-13 5:36

18-Sep-13 5:36

A form like that would not likely hold up in court... just like most non-compete clauses. However, I'm not a lawyer.

Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer

Michael Martin18-Sep-13 6:23

Michael Martin

18-Sep-13 6:23

OriginalGriff wrote:
Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.

I signed one of them years ago when I moved to a job paying 40%+ more. Went home the first day and wrote a program that printed CSC Australia diddle little kids all over the place. I can't believe the bastards didn't want the code.

Michael Martin
Australia

"I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible."
- Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004

Boipelo18-Sep-13 6:52

Boipelo

18-Sep-13 6:52

In my case it is, it’s stated so in my employment contract and I am also not allowed to develop any product that does similar things/services that they are offering, I should rather advice potential clients to contact my company – there is a bonus if such potential client make an agreement with the company.

I remain joe!

modified 18-Sep-13 13:06pm.