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All good! 
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
_________________________________________________________
My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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The unfortunate tragedy of Ms Halapanavar happenend not because of the law of the land but because a consultant in charge denied her her constitutional right. To the extend that the Irish Police are now investigating. What you are witnessing here now is the antics of the Pro-choice lobby making political capital from the sad event. Given the opportunity the pro live lobby is no better.
It would not surprise me if the consultant in question turned out to be pro choice and allowed this woman to die to prove a point that pregnancy can still be fatal.
There are two points I will sign off on.
According to the constitution of Ireland, "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right".
Ireland has just 6 deaths per 100,000 pregnancies making one of the safest places in the world to be pregnant.
Ger
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Ger Hayden wrote: It would not surprise me if the consultant in question turned out to be pro choice and allowed this woman to die to prove a point that pregnancy can still be fatal.
Man you are a cynical bugger, I hope you are wrong, if you are not then I hope they lynch the bastard, pro choice or not!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Ch3ap Chi|| P1lls! Buy n0w!
Ok, but seriously, if that's what happens, that's just Good Strategy. And, of course, if he plays it right, he will have put in at least a years worth of "pretending to be a proper pro-lifer" as preparation, and he will never ever say something pro-choice from this point on.
I just hope he plays it right. It's a nice strategy, one that could very well work.
That way it will have been useful. If he's really pro life, then this was just stupid. Of course it may still end up being useful, but without strategy that doesn't count.
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Unfortunately few doctors are willing to perform medically necessary abortions because of all the legal problems.
Didn't the consultant say "this is a Catholic country"?
It's about time the world grew up and cast off the shackles of religious dogma. If people want to be religious, fine, but no special treatment.
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I suspect that was a racist excuse to hide behind religion...
Ger
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Much of the discussion I have heard in the UK has laid the blame at a lack of effective legislation to provide any substance around the constitutional right.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Shed Petition[ ^]
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Abortion is a sensitive issue in most of the countries.
To what I have seen and heard in news,I am not sure If I have got a unbiased views from both side.
But the fact is that tragedy has happened. If this incident can create an environment to
revist the Abortion Law in Ireland sensibly,then it would really be a way forward.
cheers,
Super
------------------------------------------
Too much of good is bad,mix some evil in it
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That's what happens when you make the rantings of religious nuts into the law.
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As opposed to the rantings of secular nuts?
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They don't make those into laws nearly as often, because there isn't as much consensus among secular nuts.
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Wrong forum. This should be in the soapbox.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done.
Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H
OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre
I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Take it elsewhere. This is the lounge.
"I do not have to forgive my enemies, I have had them all shot." — Ramón Maria Narváez (1800-68).
"I don't need to shoot my enemies, I don't have any." - Me (2012).
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Amen brother, amen! :blush:
While being a "ramone catlicker" myself, it's more of a thing I was born into than of actually living out this particular believe system. I do agree with you, that this is a truely bad thing to happen. No religeous group should hold any power whatsoever over the lifes of people. Then again so should nobody else really!
Cheers!
"I had the right to remain silent, but I didn't have the ability!"
Ron White, Comedian
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As so often, it takes someone dying before the general populace is woken up enough to start complaining about a stupid law.
Ireland is much more secular these days, now that it has a strong identity of its own and doesn't need to cling to Catholicism to preserve a difference to the occupying Brits (a big reason that it was strongly Catholic up to the early 20th century). I expect religiously inspired legal rules to gradually be got rid of when they cause obvious problems ... as this one just has done.
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Quote: I am happy to accept that human mankind developed out of nothing
Quote: I have to re-assert reality.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Bram van Kampen wrote: Sorry if I offended anyone, did not intend to do so,
but, sometimes I have to re-assert reality.
If you're going to be an atheist evangelist you'll need to be consistent or you'll get shredded by the religious folks.
Your post above is rife with contradiction and emotionalism which would place your thinking patterns more inline with religious folks than with hard core rationalists. Atheism is hard work - like a beautiful math problem in which single mis-step will blow the entire equation.
For example, it is considered a logical fallacy to use edge cases in the way you're using them here. The idea that a single death translates to a need to reform the law is not a cogent argument. In reality, it is an emotional argument of the worst sort.
I could just as easily say that many more people drink themselves to death in Ireland every year - and use that as an excuse to outlaw all alcohol - and I'd be making just as valid of an argument as you've made here. It's an emotional argument that sounds good on the surface but the reality is that it's poor reasoning.
Additionally, given your introduction (we're all accidents with no purpose) you've undercut any reason as to why I should care that the woman died. You claim the death is significant, but only after claiming all of humanity is insignificant. So another excretion of nature bit the big one - tell me why I should care (from your world view).
Also, you've pre-supposed what you hoped to prove - and there are other problems - but I digress.
The big point is that if you're gonna throw your atheist thing down please be careful.
It's a minority position that needs to be carefully communicated or you'll get steamrolled.
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MehGerbil wrote: you'll need to be consistent or you'll get shredded by the religious folks.
Because the religious folks are consistent?
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jschell wrote: Because the religious folks are consistent?
I'm trying to help Bram be a better atheist.
Should a religious person post fallacious arguments in the lounge I'll be sure to let that person know.
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Well,
MehGerbil wrote: If you're going to be an atheist evangelist you'll need to be consistent or
you'll get shredded by the religious folks.
I'm not an evangelist of any type. I am an atheist, but, if others want to believe in supernatural beings, they are free to do so. I am also not a professional phylosopher, just a person with a world view which does not include life after death, or supernatural beings.
MehGerbil wrote: Your post above is rife with contradiction and emotionalism which would place
your thinking patterns more inline with religious folks than with hard core
rationalists. Atheism is hard work - like a beautiful math problem in which
single mis-step will blow the entire equation.
For example, it
is considered a logical fallacy to use edge cases in the way you're using them
here. The idea that a single death translates to a need to reform the law is not
a cogent argument. In reality, it is an emotional argument of the worst
sort.
Having this belief in freedom of belief, it becomes a different matter when real cases crop up, where such believes cause actual hurt and damage to other people. I think it quite appropriate to get emotional about that.
MehGerbil wrote: The big point is that if you're gonna throw your atheist thing down please be
careful.
It's a minority position that needs to be carefully communicated or
you'll get steamrolled.
It is a very substantial minority. many are afraid to admit.
The question is, steamrolled by whom. I have my beliefs. The religious can win an argument about the existence of a God. That just means that I was not smart enough to their whit. It does not mean that I turn around and say: 'Oh Gosh! Never thought of that, God exists afterall'.
Regards 
Bram.
Bram van Kampen
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Bram van Kampen wrote: Having this belief in freedom of belief, it becomes a different matter when real cases crop up, where such believes cause actual hurt and damage to other people. I think it quite appropriate to get emotional about that.
My mistake.
Most atheists I've discussed things with in the past are very strict about rational thinking.
You seem to be quite a bit more casual about it, which I think is becoming the norm.
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MehGerbil wrote: It's an emotional argument that sounds good on the surface but the reality is that it's poor reasoning.
Wowowow wait. How does that sound good on the surface? Both arguments sound like emotionjerking on every level.
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harold aptroot wrote: Wowowow wait. How does that sound good on the surface? Both arguments sound like emotionjerking on every level
You're probably an old school atheist.
By that I mean things like 'logic' and 'reasoning' mean a great deal to you.
There is no veiled insult in that - in all honesty, good for you.
My impression is that there has been a vast change in atheism (or those who claim to be atheist) as we move into the post-modern era. Phrases are likely to begin with "I feel as if" instead of "It has been proven". Evidently this shift includes sprinkling discussions with logical fallacies. It catches me off guard because I'm used to atheists being particularly vigilant on that score and it's one thing I really respect.
Probably the move from fringe to mainstream has lessened the percieved need to be vigilant.
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Well I don't know, atheism has been mainstream for all my life. At least, here in the Netherlands. Theism is increasingly being seen as fringe here, even though it still represents almost half the population.
I didn't really notice any change during that time, there were always lots of atheists around who were basically Christians but just didn't believe in God, and they were always inconsistent in their use of logic.
But you could be on to something, it makes sense at least.
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