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Is a sea-cow shoplifter a Klepto-Manatee?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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I'd be more concerned about a sea-bull in a china shop.
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You're making a crockery of this thread ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Do I detect a ray of hope in this new grouper ToD themes? I porpoise we fin-ish this on a grand scale.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Holy mackerel! I don't like the shark of this thread, but I'm sure it will get the seal of approval from the admins.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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You guys must be on something or desparate to come up with this stuff. 
Hell is vacation with your family.
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Mission accomplished!
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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For goodness hake, I'm floundering with this carp, I need to mullet over.
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So I got an email from a potential client who wanted a quotation for some software.
Bit weird, called them, had a conversation on who they are, who I am, what I can do and what they want exactly.
I mean, this isn't like ordering a new TV, we're talking serious money and a long term commitment here.
Not to mention custom software, so I really need to know what they want me to write (they did send a functional design, but it never hurts to talk to the people behind it).
So anyway, I was able to send them a quotation and they immediately rejected it because they don't agree to my terms and conditions because they had their own conditions for suppliers.
They usually order mechanical parts and their conditions were geared (pun intended) towards parts suppliers.
Stuff like they're not responsible for damages and they can cancel orders when the delivery is late or when they want to change their order and the additional costs seem unreasonable to them...
Called them and said I can't agree to those terms since this is software were talking about, not mechanical parts.
Heck, my insurance won't even cover any damages if I agree to their terms.
We're now looking for conditions that work for both parties, so I'm hoping we can work it out and I get a new customer.
Did you ever get asked to work for a client on their conditions?
I can imagine it being standard in some industries, but I've never heard about it for software (unless you're a freelance contractor, in which case you practically always sign an employer's contract).
For the record, I'm not a freelance contractor, I take on the entire project, develop it in-house and deliver it when it's done (or in parts).
When it's done I deliver support and maintenance at an hourly rate (or fixed price if a change is big enough).
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The most common condition was a non-disclosure agreement. Most of these were OK, but some were too broad and had to be narrowed down, particularly if they wanted rights to software that you developed later, just because it could be seen as useful to their business.
A few expected there to be liability insurance. Most of these contracts are written by lawyers who try to cover every possibility, and then the contract gets used for everything, whether it makes sense or not. Get them to agree that liability is limited to the amount of the contract unless you do something malicious, like putting a back door in their software. And that disagreements must resolved through private arbitration, not government courts.
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My previous employer tried to get me to sign a non-compete agreement that was so broad that it wouldn't have allowed me to work as an IT professional in any industry. This was after I had been working there for over a decade and a half. I put it in a cross cut shredder.
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Hi, be advised that if a non-compete agreement is too broad that it will not be enforceable in court. So if you do sign it...They will not be able to enforce it.
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Sander Rossel wrote: Did you ever get asked to work for a client on their conditions?
It is the case with all government related customers... All big-money or full-of-self-importance customers I know of has this initial behavior, like they do not buy the product but you...
As story of my wife: They got a job with one of those customers (GOV). After they signed the customer told them, that they can not paint the product themselves, because there is a 'code' and they don't want to waste time on approving their facility, so they have to hand over the product for paint to an approved 3rd party - wife told them thay can go and f**** themselves - the painting is one of their trade secret...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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It happens here with the Automotive industry, sort of. Suppliers can make a lot of money if they get a contract, but have to agree to strict SLAs and timelines for deliveries. Big fines are involved if the are late / can't supply and make the factory line stop.
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I talk them out of fixed bids and tell then to do hourly. I give an "end of day" status report and expect to always deliver something every few days. They can cancel anytime they feel there's no progress. They never do (in my case). Of course, you can cancel any time too (in writing).
Bottom line, keep them interested / motivated with updates and a stream of deliverables: scope document; design documents; prototypes; etc. The only thing you might regret is your quoted rate when they rave about you.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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Have you ever had them take advantage of you.
Keep what you wrote, not pay the last 1-2 invoices?
I let my clients know that I build in termination code. If they terminate early, the programs are not expected to work after that. Because I withhold about 30% of the invoice until the client is satisfied all of the conditions were met and/or they are able to use it.
If they claim that they can't use it, the termination code is no big deal. I've got screwed once when a partner needed to approve the invoice (because it was large), he was out of town, etc. The second invoice showed up, and a lot more progress was made... I was too trusting. They said they could not use it, and packed things in.
90+ days later... I got the call about an error message (in software they did not finish paying for, that they found unusable, and were supposedly just trying to demo it to see if they could use it, I told them I would have to show up, and repair the files, which would likely lose the DEMO data... Then the truth came out... I made them wait until the check cleared! I should have tacked on a punishment fee!)
Now I am much more picky about who I do work for.
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If you need them as a new client... you will need to clarify a lot.
If you do well without them... keep going, this might end being a big headache and your mental sanity is worthier than the bill they might pay you.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Evil dealings of Ian Apple? (12)
[clue] What kind of apple? [/clue]
@OriginalGriff - two points about the rules on your member page...
Your link to the Terrorgraph's "how to" page now hits a paywall.
Also, the time seems to have crept from 0900 UTC to 0900 London time.
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
modified 26-Jul-21 7:04am.
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Time fixed - I moved it to "London time" since most of us have to deal with summer time / daylight savings. That way it's pretty much the same time relative to the "working day".
Which link to Terrorgraph? Got it. Yes, they added one a year or more back. I'll see if I can find a non-paywall version ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Don't think the linkiness survived copy/paste...
Normal CCC rules apply: How to solve cryptic crosswords[^] <<<<=====
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
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Turning off Javascript seems to "break" the paywall for me on the Telegraph site. (I used to be a subscriber though which may have some bearing).
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OriginalGriff wrote: pretty much the same time relative to the "working day".
Just as well I'm retired - there's now a two hour seasonal shift for me, instead of one. 
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
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machinations (anagram of Ian MacIntosh)
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Yep! YUAT. I was getting scared of the three strikes rule...
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
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Peter_in_2780 wrote: [clue] What kind of apple? [/clue]
Laxton's Superb, Bramley, Cox's Orange Pippin? Take your pick.
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