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This came up at work today & I though I'd ask what you guys think...
Generally as with most salaried jobs we don't get paid overtime. But occasionally we're asked to work additional hours for specific tasks, and are paid overtime.
The overtime rate is fixed across the company (more or less, I believe!) and for me equates to somewhat less than my normal hourly rate.
This seems weird!
So I had to come in over the weekend (about 9 hours work all up, plus commuting time) and asked if I could take a day off in lieu.
Rather than the expected 'Of course, thanks for helping out' I got 'well, just this once - and don't tell anyone else or they'll all start wanting time off in lieu'.
I've been working in IT for 40 years - but this company isn't an IT company, so I'm wondering if perhaps this is the norm in some industries?
Thoughts, comments, sympathy and job offers appreciated...
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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By the way your overtime rate sucks. It should be 1.5 times normal rate. 
Some firms pay it. some dont, even on salaried wages, it varies.
As for time off, that is normal. You are contracted to work x number of hours, but of course you expect a bit of flexibility, working late a few nights, getting in late a few mornings, but anything beyond this, either way, is abuse.
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At one company, I was given a very nice pay increase as a "thank you!".
Which just happened to move me from the "we pay overtime" salary band to the "you don't get paid overtime any more" band.
As a result I lost about 1/8th of my take home money. I was not a happy bunny.
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I do not know how it is done in real life, but there is a law about 150% for simple overtime. 200% for night-time and weekends...
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge". Stephen Hawking, 1942- 2018
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: 150% for simple overtime. 200% for night-time and weekends
Don't forget that this applies in Israel, and may not apply in other countries.
Ad astra - both ways!
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_Maxxx_ wrote: for me equates to somewhat less than my normal hourly rate.
Overtime is usually more expensive than normal hours, but it is up to you what you accept and don't accept.
_Maxxx_ wrote: Generally as with most salaried jobs we don't get paid overtime.
Yes, we do. You don't get free labor from me. If you say overtime isn't paid, you are saying there is no overtime. Just "free" time.
_Maxxx_ wrote: So I had to come in over the weekend
Haha, I'm not coming, there's a BBQ here 
You'd need a damn good reason to get me on a saturday, and it better not be bad planning
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If you feel like moving to Israel, we may have a few job openings for you...
From the financial POV:
One of the reasons overtime is paid (by law, in many countries) at a higher rate than normal is to make it less attractive to the employer, the idea being that employees deserve reasonable amounts of time off. Time off in lieu may seem attractive, but you are actually being paid at a rate of 100% when you should be receiving a higher rate.
From the personal POV:
Having an extra day off gives you more time to spend with your family, but may not be that attractive if the rest of the family is still at school, work, etc.
Personally, I'd go for the cash.
Ad astra - both ways!
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote: One of the reasons overtime is paid (by law, in many countries) at a higher rate than normal is to make it less attractive to the employer
When you price up the cost of a workers time you take the entire costs of the company; rent, machinery depreciation, electricity, wages, for the year, and divide that up per worker per hour on a 40 hour week.
This works out to say £30. So when you price the goods up your company makes you use this value.
Since overtime is outside normal time, ie outside the 8 hours a day, 40 hour week, this £30 per hour you priced your goods at is NOT used to pay off electricty, rent, etc, it is PURE PROFIT.
This is why a employer can pay 1.5 time, or 2 x time. In fact an employer RAKES it in when hie workfore work over time.
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So if you price a product based on £30.00, and you then have to pay your workers overtime to get it working and shipped to the customer, you make even more profit? You must be an economist.
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Dont you get it?
It is very simple.
Again, on normal time, 40 hours a week, all your fixed business costs are paid for by pricing each NORMAL hour to the customer at say £30.
Over time is OUTSIDE this. Hours worked outside the normal hours do NOT pay for fixed costs. The whole £30 is extra, so the company can afford to pay overtime, and actually makes a lot of extra money itself.
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Exactly how does a company make more profit by paying its workers more money than planned?
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Do I have to say it again?
All the fixed costs of the company are worked out on a 40 hour week to give the cost a company charges its workers out at.
Overtime is beyond 40 hours. Money earnt then does NOT pay fixed costs, it pay overtime rate, and the electricity used that day, and the rest is sheer profit for the boss.
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Munchies_Matt wrote: Overtime is beyond 40 hours. Money earnt then does NOT pay fixed costs
Where does this money come from? Overtime is a cost against the company.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: Where does this money come from
The CUSTOMER!
Dear oh god!
When you price goods you price the material used, the hourly labour cost of the company (NOT the workers hourly wage, but the amount the company needs to make per hour on a 40 hour week to cover ALL costs) call it £40 for a small firm, and a percent for profit.
So (materials + (£40 x time spent on the product) ) x 1.3 = final cost to customer.
Of that £40 actual workers wages might by £8. All the rest covers rent, machinery depreciation etc for the year.
If you can make the product on a saturday the entire £40 (excluding electricity) is free. It is not paying fixed costs, these were paid for by the 40 hours normal time worked. The 8 hours over time is in addition.
So on saturday of the £30, even taking out £12 for wages you have £28 left over for the boss.
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You have forgotten to take some factors into account:
- It is true that the employer's fixed costs (e.g. rent) don't go up, but he still has additional marginal costs (e.g. utilities, security, wear-and-tear on equipment) when running overtime.
- Employees working overtime are more tired, more likely to make mistakes, and (in a factory environment) more likely to have accidents. This is even true for regular night shift workers.
The idea of overtime pay is not to punish the employer for asking his employees to work over time, but to make it less profitable to do so. That does not mean that there is no profit.
Ad astra - both ways!
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote: The idea of overtime pay is not to punish the employer for asking his employees to work over time, but to make it less profitable to do so.
You are completely wrong. Overtime hours make a lot more money for the employer. I just showed you why.
Deducting electricity and over time wages from that £30 earnt on a saturday a lot for the boss.
Deducting normal wages, ground rent, depreciation, salaried wages, etc monday to friday leaves nothing for the boss.
Look, I worked in an engineering company at executive level, this is precisely how you calculate the hourly rate you need to charge out at, and why overtime is such a win win for everyone.
modified 30-Apr-18 8:14am.
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It depends if the overtime hours are spent producing more product which can be sold (production overtime), or if they are spent trying to fix a problem or catch up on a late project which cannot be charged to the customer (R&D overtime). The former equals more profit, the latter is more cost.
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Well of course. Mis-pricing or f***ing up a job costs. Period.
That doesnt change the fact that paying workers overtime makes a lot of money for the boss.
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Our overtime here is 1.5 * regular time...up to a cap. From there it is that fixed amount.
My position is such that my overtime is the same as my regular time, so I would take the time off or the money, whichever was more attractive at the moment.
My last job didn't have the cap, so I could have made a bundle with overtime...if I ever had had to work overtime. But I didn't.
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depending upon factors in employment, Country, Boss, President of company(Elon Mushhy) you will have differing takes on this.
Previous employer(boss) was like you worked this weekend you be sure and take Friday afternoon off next. Or which ever afternoon/day is convenient for you and your work.
Heard that Elon Mushhy works likes 90 hours and expects employees to do the same without any extras other than helping him build the next world order. I actually went and looked a job description there a few months back, Working in Space Industry looks fun right. Says in job description must be willing to work all hours and put in the extra effort required. hmmmmm, Ummmm NO!
current employer doesn't even notice when we work weekends. I have worked a few hours each weekend for the past 3. Haven't heard much about it. Normal that I won't hear. Unnatural that I have to work more than one weekend every three months or so.
Salaried employees in the US are very unlikely to ever have overtime pay.
To err is human to really mess up you need a computer
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It should be give and take. I work "overtime" or do out of hours support as needed. If I need time off or to work from home or to come in late or leave early that's all good. If I need a day off to do something it all evens out. Should be a fair exchange.
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The End
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you said should be fair. Life unfortunately is not fair ever.
To err is human to really mess up you need a computer
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rnbergren wrote: Life unfortunately is not fair ever.
That's just not true. Except when it is.
Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer.
The End
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Last job I was at was asked to do overtime,
salaried so there was no overtime pay (common in most salaried jobs)
anyway in those cases I would tell the boss I'd take time in lieu when I needed it.
usually if it was only a few hours (perhaps over a few nights), on a Friday if no deadlines looming I'd tell the boss [again not ask, I told] the boss I'd take off at lunch/afternoon tea to make up for the 'overtime the other day.' (Generally I'd take a little less hours than worked OT so they couldn't complain.)
If it was a whole-nighter/whole-weekend [and the job was finished] I'd just message the boss the next morning I wouldn't be in that day [to get my own stuff done that I had put off to finish this work] (or on the Monday after a weekend stint).
1. don't let it accumulate nor wait too long before taking otherwise they will argue back (often mentioning "long lunches / "late starts" you often take (even if not true hard to argue).
2. just take it - it is your right.
if you're valuable enough to them there should not be an argument, ignore it if there is, tell the boss you had stuff to do that you put off FOR HIM and now it has to be done, fair is fair.
If your boss still complains don't be afraid to go over his head;
- tell bigger boss it was not your problem that not enough resources or/and promises were committed to get the job done in normal time
- and that you had your own/personal things to get done [for/with your family] which you willingly put off temporarily to help the company meet it's deadline but these things still had to get done sooner, so fair is fair, you already went the extra mile to help them. (If they ask what cite family commitments - they can't ever tell you to ignore your family - winners include kids school stuff or helping old sick/weak [grand]parents.)
After that it will be your boss that needs to explain, why overtime was required, why insufficient resources were committed, why he/she is not giving time to employees to get personal matters done to satisfy his/her own goals ...
Don't care about others finding out, should be normal practice.
but main thing is, don't ask, just tell them and take it. It IS your right.
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For current employment, all of IT is "exempt", which means no pay for OT. Essentially, they count as salaried. Except they/we don't get the good parts of salaried.
Federal government: employees above a certain pay grade were considered exempt, but that meant that they couldn't get money. They could get "compensatory time" (Comp Time). In fact, they must get it. They also have arrangements for earning religious comp time, which was a mechanism for persons of comparatively rare religious beliefs to earn time off in order to use it for religious observance.
Otherwise, as stated in many a reply, OT for regular employees is 1.5x their normal wage, and working on holidays gives rather lucrative holiday pay, which is OT on a higher wage scale. Or not, depending upon the contract (if union).
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