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Um why do you want to 'see' the scroll bar if you are not using it? You know it is still there so what is the problem?
My Mrs styles herself Annie O'Luddite. You would probably get on well with her. 
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TheComputerMan wrote: Um why do you want to 'see' the scroll bar if you are not using it? You know it is still there so what is the problem?
I should not rise to the bait, but in case your question was serious, and you have not experienced what it's like to use (or not use)...
A fairly well known way of 'using' the scroll bar is to sit the mouse cursor in the area below the bar, and click to go down by a screenful - then read the page, and click again (with no mouse movement required) when ready for the next screen. Once the scroll bar has disappeared, clicking does nothing, and one has to move the mouse (but not too far, mind) to make it appear again. This is just silly. It seems obvious the screen behaviour was tailored for touch use, with no thought given to mousers.
BTW, I might ask: why hide the scroll bar when there is nothing 'behind' it to see?
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Are you seriously arguing this?
When something is subjective, it means you can't prove it's better. That's all.
mngerhold wrote: how do you feel about scroll bars that disappear after a few seconds?
I think it's great. Which proves nothing. Or are you suggesting that the only opinion that counts is your own? Seems that's the attitude on this thread.
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Yup, some of us have been in this business over 30 years, including me, and some of us have moved with the times. Frankly I would not still wish to be using ANSI Basic 1.0 or MASM 1.0
Sounds like with all the moans about "Start" you should use Classic Shell, or is that a tad too modern for you? 
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den2k88 wrote: I knew Win 8 sucked so I didn't upgrade - and I informed myself on the equipment compatible with Win 7 before buying new PCs.
I know Win10 sucks hard so I won't upgrade to it - again I'll keep my Win7 until the hardware will be supported. If a version of VS needs Win10 I won't buy it - I don't code at home, and at work the responsibility for my platform isn't mine, nor the management of my time.
Until the next one... after all I used WinXP at home up until 2012 and at work until 2016, with negligible problems on either software or games. So... if it sucks it remains there on the shelf.
Yes Windows "evolution" remindes me of the old tale "The Emporer's New Clothes". The words "sheep' and "mass hypnosis" come to mind. I can only suspect that people that like W10 are
1.) simply bored and are adicted to constant change for change sake.
2.) don't actually do anything with their computers
I have nothing but problems with it. Yes it does boot faster but so what? Uh...what else? Oh yes lets us make cosmetic change to our programs and resll them as "new improved" version. What a racket!
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I've been a Windows die hard since 1.3 (yeah for real)... But I have to say that I'm seriously considering a different route for my personal use anymore. The evil empire has allured me and with w/10's unruly auto update schedule I am really seriously considering biting the bullet and getting an iMac and putting a VM up for what windows apps I need to run at home (should there be any after the shake out).
So while all my Windows boxes at the house now run 10 (3 of them) today, I feel your pain. And I am a bit disillusioned with MS current offering and where they seem to be going.
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I have used Windows 8 and now use windows 10 with no issues.
I us it mostly for programming but am quite happy.
Make sure your hardware up to date and I think you would be happy.
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Roger165 wrote: Make sure your hardware up to date and I think you would be happy.
I definetely would be... I'd be glad even having the money for it. My current Pc is a 5.5 years old laptop so there's no room to improve.
Next PC will be a self assembled desktop and I'll still put a Win7 on it except in the case some hw won't be compatible - highly improbable though.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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Pitiful soul. Go ahead and stay with Windows XP for another five years then. Good for ya.
I updated all my devices to windows 10 since last year, FYI. And I didn't encounter any of the problem you mentioned.
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At work we are still forced to keep XP since we have to support machines that costs more than a house for the next years - we also have some Win2k VMs because we sold it on our machines until 2008.
And Win7 created a lot of problems in the beginning due to the myriad useless services it has that raise CPU/disk usage periodically and screws up our SW, which has to control hardware AND do heavy weight elaborations in real time. Windows 8 has been tried and dumped due to the ridiculous slowdowns it causes in the execution of the software - they were not there with XP, which we would have kept if not to comply with some BIG customer random IT policy (the machine is for all accounts an embedded piece of hardware so it should not be considered a workstation).
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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Services can be turned off at will though... In all Windows version.
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I'm glad the software I build does not have the same size userbase as Microsoft's. Microsoft used to allow you to enable/disable updates but then got sued too many times by people who said it is Microsoft's responsibility to keep their software up to date and secure. So, now Microsoft forces updates and everyone else is complaining now claiming that Microsoft has no right to auto-update their software. When you are on top, you just can't please anyone it seems like.
I've used Apple, Linux, and Microsoft OSs and products over the years. From a user point of view and from a developer point of view, Microsoft dominates so clearly that I have no problem dealing with the imperfections. It used to be much worse dealing with Microsoft products but even 15 years ago they were still the best around, IMO.
Glad my problems are not like Microsoft's. I wonder how others would feel if their software were scrutinized to the level that Microsoft's software is. I think that may cause a few people to settle down but I'm guessing most just need something to be mad at and big targets are easy targets.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I think they screwed up by removing your ability to control your own update strategy in Win10.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Just disable the update service, right? I don't see why this is such a big deal. Does that not work? No updates have ever messed with any of my machines so I haven't tried it.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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That's the point of it all - you cannot disable updates. Certainly not a normal user.
Even for a enterprise system they only let you postpone it (as crashing that would be a valid lawsuit, indeed, if they updated the system without permission).
Surprised you didn't know what's involved http://www.thewindowsclub.com/turn-off-windows-update-in-windows-10[^] - which is beyond most users.
In particular, you argued with my posts on this and yet you proclaimed RyanDev wrote: Just disable the update service, right? I don't see why this is such a big deal. Does that not work?
which brings me to a large WTF ! as it's a strong implication you defended MS without even knowing the true story!
Updates have "always" been automatic - but the user could easily disable them, or as I do, have windows ask permission each time - so I don't get screwed by a poorly timed event.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Surprised you didn't know what's involved
Turn off the service. I already said that. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Your linked article said the same thing, turn off the service.
I am confused where did your WTF come out from.
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It's kinda ironic...everyone (by everyone I mean people who refer to Microsoft as M$) complains that Microsoft products are "least secure" without giving any validation or credence. Yet independent security expects like Secunia show MS products as being generally the most secure, and one of the reasons for this is MS' update strategy. IE is the most up-to-date browser on the web. As well as ignoring these facts, M$ bashers now want to complain about the very thing that makes their products the most secure! Seems some people just want to watch Microsoft burn *shrug*
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If the updates renders the system unusable for its purposes security is moot. Otherwise a turned off machine is the most secure machine you'll ever see.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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den2k88 wrote: If the updates renders the system unusable for its purposes security is moot.
That is true. However, from the reasons I have seen so far, what is killing the win10 machines are drivers. Not Microsoft code, but 3rd party code.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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As always. Of course keeping track with a OS that upgrades every week is kind of tough for the 3rd party developers, so good luck to them fixing things...
I'll wait until the upgrades/year will have dropped to acceptable levels or I'll desperatedly need to run something that only Win10 sipports and there is no dirty trick to make it work under 7.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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den2k88 wrote: Of course keeping track with a OS that upgrades every week is kind of tough for the 3rd party developers
I'll refer to the title of my post and add that it's also tough for Microsoft to make software that works with thousands and thousands of vendors who have drivers for so many different hardware configurations.
It is impossible for Microsoft to test every possible combination, obviously.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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den2k88 wrote: keeping track with a OS that upgrades every week is kind of tough for the 3rd party developers
Let me introduce you to Linux, where you seriously start wondering if you've lost internet connectivity when a machine hasn't downloaded an update in 2 days in a row.
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Yes, but they only take a minute or so, and don't require a reboot (unless it is a kernel update). Even 70 updates the other day only took about 3 minutes. And I have never had them break existing installed hardware. (My gf has win 8.1- can't upgrade due to drivers- but a windows update broke her wireless mouse. She thought it was a dead battery, so replaced the battery, but it still did not work. She had me buy her a new wireless mouse, but it still didn't work. Last night she withheld dinner until I fixed her mouse. I had to remove the unrecognized device entries in her device manager -driver update would not find the driver- and manually download the driver for her mouse and install it.)
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Of all things, what mouse, in this day and age, still requires a proprietary driver not already built into Windows?
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