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PeejayAdams wrote: But you can also easily spot regular users of tobacco, alcohol, caffeine, sugar, valium or any other substance regardless of its legal status.
Can you? *shrug*
PeejayAdams wrote: Would I advocate making it illegal? No. Would I advocate making it very clear to the public how dangerous it is? Most definitely!
Alas we still don't really know the exact dangers to the public which is the issue. The thing about many legal drugs is that they are fine in moderation (obviously smoking isn't included here, if it was up to me that would be banned too), but if drugs like cannabis are not fine in moderation then they probably shouldn't be legal. And so far the evidence seems to be showing that to be the case. People should also remember that these drugs have got a lot more powerful in recent years than the odd joint you used to have in your parent's garage in 1970.
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F-ES Sitecore wrote: Can you? shrug
Yes, very easily!
F-ES Sitecore wrote: obviously smoking isn't included here, if it was up to me that would be banned too
Would that make it go away? I suspect it would have the opposite effect simply because it's worked that way with everything else that's ever been banned.
F-ES Sitecore wrote: if drugs like cannabis are not fine in moderation then they probably shouldn't be legal
If we substitute "alcohol" for "cannabis" in that sentence, does the same apply?
F-ES Sitecore wrote: People should also remember that these drugs have got a lot more powerful in recent years than the odd joint you used to have in your parent's garage in 1970.
That's certainly true when it comes to cannabis. The reason for that being that where there used to be a ready supply of relatively mild Middle Eastern resin, the market is now dominated by domestically farmed "skunk" due to stronger customs controls on things coming abroad - yet another unfortunate, unintended and utterly counter-productive consequence of the failed War on Drugs.
Slogans aren't solutions.
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PeejayAdams wrote: Yes, very easily!
We'll need to agree to disagree on that then. If that forms any part of your argument I have to say it's a very weak argument.
PeejayAdams wrote: Would that make it go away?
No. However even a ban on smoking in public has reduced the number of people who smoke. Banning it entirely would probably reduce that even more. Not to zero, obviously, rape and murder are banned also but they still happen.
PeejayAdams wrote: If we substitute "alcohol" for "cannabis" in that sentence, does the same apply?
Of course, but alcohol is fine in moderation, something backed up by many studies so at least we are fairly certain where we are with drugs like that.
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F-ES Sitecore wrote: Banning it entirely would probably reduce that even more.
That would be why so very few people take cocaine these days, then.
My entire argument (which has nothing whatsoever to do with how easy it is spot a caffeine freak, by the way) is that banning anything invariably seems to lead to an increase in its consumption. Banning has been repeatedly tried and failed with various substances, so why do we insist on trying the same thing again and again in the hope of getting different results? We all know the definition of insanity, I hope.
Prohibition benefits organised crime, it does not benefit society as a whole.
Slogans aren't solutions.
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PeejayAdams wrote: That would be why so very few people take cocaine these days, then.
That has no relevance to anything I said. When you typed your initial reply you probably thought "I can't wait until he says that banning it would stop it and then I can drop this zinger!". Did you actually read my reply before saying that nonsense?
PeejayAdams wrote: banning anything invariably seems to lead to an increase in its consumption
Banning smoking in public lead to a decrease. One that has had knock-on health benefits to such as a decreased in smoking-related diseases. So you're wrong. 100% wrong.
PeejayAdams wrote: Prohibition benefits organised crime, it does not benefit society as a whole.
Prohibition does indeed benefit organised crime but you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. As for it not benefiting society....wow.
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PeejayAdams wrote: tobacco, alcohol, caffeine, sugar, valium
The fact that some poisons are easy to get does not mean we need to make others easily available too. I'd actually focus on reducing the use of the "legal" ones. There is absolutely no good coming from any of them.
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: The fact that some poisons are easy to get does not mean we need to make others easily available too. I'd actually focus on reducing the use of the "legal" ones. There is absolutely no good coming from any of them.
I'm 100% in favour of reducing the use of all toxins.
The point, I'm making, is that the illegal nature of some and the legal nature of others highlights the absurdity and the ineffectiveness of prohibition. Education is the answer, pouring billions down the plug-hole on an ineffective solution is not.
Slogans aren't solutions.
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F-ES Sitecore wrote: (just because evidence is anecdotal doesn't mean it isn't valid).
Nor does it validate it.
We live in a time where the concept of fake news is 'outed' - that, it turns out, is how marijuana became illegal in the first place - fake news, movies, and the lot.
Back to your anecdotes - by the same token:
1 - nor does it make it true.
2 - you interpret what you see through thoughts already predefined - cherry picking.
Why "Cherry Picking" ? Because, you have no idea how many of the people around you enjoyed their weed. No idea what percentage are in that category you ply as evidence. You know what you want the evidence to prove and decide it proves it - certainly based upon how you described it.
Humans are exception driven: you notice things that stick out, ignore the normal. It's actually the route of most bigotry (racial/ethnic of all sorts) as you see an evil-doer and can identify their 'group'. If they look "ordinary" - you don't assign them to a group. And people in 'groups' who don't do anything to attract your attention - well, they don't attract your attention.
I know user/dealers who went on to graduate degrees at top-level universities - in science and math. They were particularly innovative. Guess what - like your anecdote above, it proves NOTHING!
Without any information beyond your anecdotes, your information is tragically flawed.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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So to sum up you think anecdotal evidence is meaningless, ergo your own prejudices are correct and everyone else's are wrong. It doesn't sound like a very solid argument, sounds a little bit contradictory and illogical to be honest.
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Actually - if you read a bit more open-mindedly, you'd so I deliberate give an anecdote and point out it means "NOTHING" using the upper case to shout.
I was, rather, trying to show you that you've found people matching your pre-conceived notions on the effects of drugs. I expanded upon this by giving, very briefly, a description of how humans take note of things that stick-out. Give them excessive weight in their decision making. Take it a step further, if it matches something they want to believe - it's proof . . . never mind 10,000 counter examples!
That's how we evolved - it's a sensible strategy for survival in the wild, taking note primarily of exceptions - but it, as numerous other instincts - begin to fail in our current environment.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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All I'm saying is that my anecdotal evidence is now being backed by proper scientific evidence so my anecdotal evidence was (in this instance) seemingly correct.
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F-ES Sitecore wrote: my anecdotal evidence is now being backed by proper scientific evidence
Proper? How So?
My real life was all scientific training, but fortunately, a step back from the type of things that make the news - no politics or agenda for determining if a reaction is first or second order. In other words, real science where you seek THE answer - whatever it may be. The crap you see on TV, hear on the radio, or read essentially any place you (and the public) are likely to look is (except in the rarest of instances) all couched in trying to prove AN answer.
Anecdote Time:
A prolonged radio report on how people who drink six or more cups of coffee/day have twice as many heart attacks as the general population. They also noted that tea drinkers, even heavy ones, had fewer heart attacks than the average population. So, they went and publicized their accusation against coffee and left it at that. Problem: the idiots (proper scientific research it was claimed) did not take into account that, in the USA, where the study was done, there was a well know combination: "Coffee and a cigarette" - vs. tea drinkers, who rarely if ever smoked. You do know that most smokers die from the heart disease it causes long before cancer.
They didn't look for other correlations; just declared it cause and effect - because that's what they were looking to do: associate coffee with heart attacks.
Now, they note that coffee drinking helps prevent prostate cancer! Or was that last week?
So, your "proper scientific evidence" - I doubt it. Too much politics involved to get an honest answer. They'll find the group they want to poll to get the answer they're paid to get.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Proper? How So?
Proper as in done by proper scientists to a proper scientific method.
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F-ES Sitecore wrote: Proper as in done by proper scientists to a proper scientific method.
My response is in my previous post.
Unless you know people who deliberately find literature labeled "produced by fake scientists using voodoo and divine enlightenment"
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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You do realise a lot of drugs can be beneficial to your work performance?
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For a short period, yes.
But after that ... 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Nope. Speed for instance.
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Horrible stuff.
The "lift" I got from it was never worth the 24 ~ 48 hours of black crashing depression I got when it wore off. 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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That can be easily managed with a combination of taking smaller amounts and alcohol.
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"Smaller amounts"..."smaller amounts"...hmmm. That was never a feature of my life when I toked and snorted! 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Nor me - all or nothing and too much ain't enough 
We can’t stop here, this is bat country - Hunter S Thompson RIP
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In the US, way back in the 60's/70's, there were public service commercials created by rock groups, such as Jefferson Airplane, with one message: Speed Kills.
Stones, too, I believe. Airplane introduced w/White Rabbit; Stones with "Mother's Little Helpers"
It was/is known that these were not anti-drug people by any means - and the credibility they added to the message kept me safely away from sallow complexion and yellow eyes.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Yes, especially if you can keep your managers drugged and happy. You can actually get something done while they sit in a corner with an idiotic smile. 
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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Your reply begs an obvious question:
Even without cannabis, there are a very large number of substances available for people to take and alter their perceptions and/or motor skills. Your surgeon could self-administer any one of these before cutting you open. Or maybe he/she just get legally major-drunk the night before and isn't looking or feeling their best when they ask for that scalpel.
WTF? And do you think legal/illegal will make one jot of difference?
Do you really think adding another drug to the mix, happening daily anyway via pharmaceutical research, is going to change anything?
Actually - as one of the few substances that induces self reflection, you may have some of those in your list of abusers, like the police you mention, realize they're business is to serve and protect the people - not beat and abuse them.
The lunacy - from an propaganda war easily a century old - that this is Satan's leaf or some other euphemism - wasn't true to begin with and isn't true now.
It's only real crime? People could grow there own - how will big pharma make any money from it? And it induces contemplation about the human condition, art, music, everything - and perhaps the concept that contemplation is pleasurable - and thus, by creating a thinking population. I realize that's undesirable in many quarters. It's long past due that those powers be told "tough sh*t? Chew harder!"
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Don't be daft. Of course, just as alcohol use is legal for airline pilots, but they must be absolutely sober to fly, certain vocations will obviously require either total abstinence from cannabis, or abstinence enough to pass regular pre-work drug checks.
The ruling was that the law making private use illegal was unconstitutional. As soon as your use affects other people, it will surely not legally be considered private, and in the two years awarded the state in which to change the written law, I'm sure such matters will be included in the new and revised legislation.
Immanentize the Eschaton!
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