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I agree, I'll take an ORM anyday over stored procedures and views.
'Couple of years ago I took over a project with *lots* of stored procedures and views; hated it:
* code changes, there was no source control system for TSQL, which version is the latest?
* debugging, how do you stop at a breakpoint in TSQL code?
* tracing, how do you trace (i.e. showing stuff in DbgView.exe) from TSQL?
etc.
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CDP1802 wrote: I would much more like to deal with an ORM running amok than with this trigger hell.
I'd much rather deal with neither!
This sounds like another case of ill-equipped developers using the wrong tool for the job!
don't you find this sort of thing just completely frustrating?!
On the one hand the ORM fanbois point to crap like you have, and justify using an ORM because of it.
But SQL fanbois point to cruddy ORM implementations and use that a their reasoning for avoiding them.
I don't suggest a "why can't we all just get along" attitude, but more of a "Learn to use the tools, understand the tools, choose the appropriate tools, use the tools well, look after the tools" attitude.
It's like the curly-bracket-on-the-same-line debate. Almost nobody justifies their position with more than a "that's how I do it so it must be better" argument.
I mean - is Vegemite better than Marmite? If you're giving it to an Aussie kid, probably yes. Giving it to a pommie kid, probably no - because it's just what they're used to. If the kid eats the bread from teh middle out, and gets covered in vegemite, changing his diet to marmite will just produce a slightly different shade of mess!
The solution is to teach him to eat properly!
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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Personally, I lean strongly to the orderly layered object oriented world and really treat the database as a storage system which I abstract away by writing DAO classes with CRUD data access methods.
This is very DRY (no redundance) and also quite easy to stick to the single responsibility principle. Both help me to write applications with little trouble from the beginning and locate and fix errors if they still arise.
Beyond those very basic architectural principles, I think most conventions, rules, guidelines and principles are pointless. They tend to complicate things more than they actually help in any way.
Much less are they anything to start a holy war over. ORMs may do a lot for you, but also make you spend a lot of time learning to configure the ORM for the job at hand. Doing everything in stored procedures holds to many 'un's for me: Unreadable. Undebuggable. Unstructured. Unmaintainable.
I think it's best to find the (for you and your goals) optimal spot between all those worlds, build a clean prototype and then get your team behind you to get some paid work done with this.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
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The interesting exchange between you and CDP1802 here has motivated me to ask a question on the "Design and Architecture" forum: [^]. Would appreciate your response when/if you have time.
«I'm asked why doesn't C# implement feature X all the time. The answer's always the same: because no one ever designed, specified, implemented, tested, documented, shipped that feature. All six of those things are necessary to make a feature happen. They all cost huge amounts of time, effort and money.» Eric Lippert, Microsoft, 2009
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Well I for one think code-first databases rock! 
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The code first approach is only best where the database is only used a mere persistence mechanism for some model information.
If we want an application that is heavily data-centric and there are a lot of database operations involved, code first is definitely not the way to go. In such cases database first should be used. So all enterprise grade applications should not even think about code first we they want to have a decent database structure. Database is something that DBAs should worry about and it should never be at the mercy of developers(if its a large application).
P.S. I try to stay away from code first for large applications. Its bad enough that I have to deal with the bad code of others. If I use code first, I will also have to worry about the bad database too.
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Code first is alright for throw away databases
That's about it
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RugbyLeague wrote: Code first is alright for throw away databases
... because ?
«I'm asked why doesn't C# implement feature X all the time. The answer's always the same: because no one ever designed, specified, implemented, tested, documented, shipped that feature. All six of those things are necessary to make a feature happen. They all cost huge amounts of time, effort and money.» Eric Lippert, Microsoft, 2009
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I hear you. My one client decided to have some co-op students develop some web apps this way, and I have been working through this, trying to get it all working so that it is at least minimally useful ever since...
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My general rule of software development: "Design should be top-down, but implementation should be bottom-up."
So I agree that code-first is wrong, but I don't agree with your stated reasons. Of course, middle-first is even worse.
I have worked at only two places where there were proper DBAs who controlled the database and all the developers could do was ask for additions and changes, I couldn't make the changes myself. On all other jobs, including now, I have had full control of everything myself top-to-bottom and that's how I like it.
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just today I found out a tool named Orca installer editor.
Can anybody share some personal experiences?
diligent hands rule....
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Southmountain wrote: Can anybody share some personal experiences?
Yes.
I once went out with a nurse from an eye hospital who had a squint.
She was quite delightful.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Shirley, that was my sister.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.1.0
My goal in life is to have a psychiatric disorder named after me.
I'm currently unsupervised, I know it freaks me out too but the possibilities are endless.
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I went out with a girl with one leg called Belinda!
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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OK someone's got to ask. What was her other leg called?
[Runs off in search of hard hat and body armour.]
Cheers,
Peter
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
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Peter_in_2780 wrote: What was her other leg called?
I don't know, but one day there was a knock on the door. She went to answer it then came into the room.
"There's a man at the door with a funny face!" she said
"Tell him you've already got one." I responded.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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yes, forget that sh*t!
try Wix#[^] instead!  
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Yes, I've used it before to edit the msi property table to disable self-repairing shortcuts which where interfering with our updater process. But that can also be done via command line scripts as part of the build process. It's interesting to see whats going on inside the msi.
We have now switched to Inno Setup. Much simpler and allows lots of customization.
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Bronx Zoo has Name A Cockroach Program[^] for hopeless romantics.
I... just... 
What do you get when you cross a joke with a rhetorical question?
---
The metaphorical solid rear-end expulsions have impacted the metaphorical motorized bladed rotating air movement mechanism.
---
Do questions with multiple question marks annoy you???
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Ick.
Memories of Rose Tree Cottage, Gibraltar.
Fantastic house, but totally infested with cockroaches. We lived there for well over a year, but found no reliable measures to get rid of the "other residents".
I've still got vivid images in my memory of their nesting places, as we found them.
So no, I will not pay to name one. There is no-one I hate so much as to give their name to one of those awful creatures.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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"Honey, I named a cockroach after you" sounds really romantic for sure. I guess the mortuaries don't have enough work around valentine's day.
Microsoft ... the only place where VARIANT_TRUE != true
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The recently-divorced sector could be a huge, untapped market 
How do you know so much about swallows? Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know.
modified 31-Aug-21 21:01pm.
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Someone sent me a linked in request, and I think it's a code project member that helped me a couple of years ago, and just wanted to check, to satisfy my curiosity.
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You could try this[^] link for starters, although it may be difficult to find your friend if they're using a psuedonym at CP.
/ravi
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For a number of members, they may be most easily found by seeking their photograph on a post-office wall.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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