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OriginalGriff wrote: used as an example
But, but Griff dear friend.... we all look up to you as a shining example of efficiency and a bountiful font of knowledge!
Gah! Almost choked on all the sugar in that one. Or almost stepped in all that poo. One of the two.
I think my fingers mutinied.
It is Friday right? Time to go!
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Before you go anywhere you should probably wipe that brown stuff off of your nose. 
Soren Madsen
"When you don't know what you're doing it's best to do it quickly" - Jase #DuckDynasty
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ThePhantomUpvoter wrote: I have been called out before for being "abusive".... And I can't simply point
them to OG sig line anymore since he changed it again
As I said to someone the other day there is a difference between being assertive and being a wanker. Perhaps you are confused... 
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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Oh dear, who have you offended this time? 
This message is manufactured from fully recyclable noughts and ones. To recycle this message, please separate into two tidy piles, and take them to your nearest local recycling centre.
Please note that in some areas noughts are always replaced with zeros by law, and many facilities cannot recycle zeroes - in this case, please bury them in your back garden and water frequently.
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OriginalGriff wrote: this time
What the holy elephant do you mean "this time"? Still!
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Now that you've talked yourself into returning your computer, I know someone who'll take it off your hands chest. 
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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S Houghtelin wrote: returning your computer
I can't...it's out of warranty
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Darn!
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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Your relationship with a friend will be tested today.
You've done the required reading and you've studied past quizzes.
That's good; however, for this test you shouldn't be afraid to look at a neighbor's paper if that's what it takes to get a passing grade.
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If your "friend" is female, it's you who will be receiving the abuse. If you're married to her, you'll either be the late Phantom Upvoter or her unpaid secretary for life.
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ThePhantomUpvoter wrote: So why on earth is it abuse to tell someone that they should box up their computer and take it back to the store?
For starters of course because your analogies started with the presumption that the people originally could use the 'product' and now are no longer capable.
Versus, presumably, your presumption that someone will never be able to learn how to use it.
One might suppose however what exactly qualifies you as the best judge of their future ability. One might also suppose that if you are trying to teach\help them then perhaps it is that you are not able in that regard with this specific person as you think you are. And a different person doing that task might succeed.
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One answer is that in your first two hypotheticals, there is no way for the person to make things work right (you even stipulate that.) In your last scenario, even an exceedingly stupid person can be taught how to use a computer (and the computer can be configured to prevent them from doing too much harm.)
BTW, the deaf person may have a fancy stereo since it has a very good bass subsystem, which deaf people can use to "listen" to music.
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End of the company issued computer[^]
A survey of 2,000 CIOs by technology consulting firm Gartner finds that by 2017, half of employers worldwide are expected to require employees to supply their own computing devices — in most cases, this means a smartphone or tablet, but could also mean your work desktop or laptop. So if you need a smartphone for business calls or to work during lunch or an iPad for client meetings or projects, for example, you’ll likely need to buy one or bring your personal device from home, says David Willis, the chief of research for mobility and communications at Gartner. “It’s like how on a construction site you bring your own tools,” he explains.
No it's not. That would be like a construction worker bringing their own crane.
We clearly live in a poverty economy. No, strike that, we live in an economy where the shareholder and [x]EO's are getting all the benefits, and more things like:
To save money, some firms have cut back on free coffee, snacks, and other employee perks.
are being "taken away" from the grunt in the office.
Pathetic. Mind you, I've actually brought my desktop to several places I've worked because the machine had better performance. Even at Citigroup, my laptop had better performance than the dog-eared machines they gave the devs.
I remember one cubicle mate telling me when I asked about how to get a memory upgrade (the workstation they gave me had 2GB) that they wait until someone is terminated and then there's a mad rush to scrounge stuff from the computer. And yes, I indeed did do that.  All the while reading how the CEO, Vikram Pandit, was getting some multi-million dollar bonus. And that was during the worst of the recession.
Marc
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Dumbest idea, ever. They clearly did not think this one through.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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They didn't think outsourcing through either and it still happened.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: They didn't think outsourcing through either and it still happened.
So true: management never think through anything: they're genetically incapable of doing so.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: They didn't think outsourcing through either and it still happened.
Huh?
What exactly do you mean by "happened"?
Outsourcing wasn't invented 10 years ago. And it hasn't had a serious impact on the market (not in the US.) And there are plenty of failure stories associated with the attempts.
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I refer to the great off-shoring push of software dev, IT and call center work 10+ years ago. Yes, I know off-shoring has been around for decades. But in the early 2000's, there was a major push for off-shoring more than at any other time in U.S. history.
Sure, move software development work to countries where the number of computers in use per 1,000 people was, I think, 10 back in 2003. Not exactly a huge base of experience to work with there. Compare that to the U.S. stat of about 760 per 1,000 back then.
That's the lack of thinking I refered to.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: I refer to the great off-shoring push of software dev, IT and call center work 10+ years ago. Yes, I know off-shoring has been around for decades. But in the early 2000's, there was a major push for off-shoring more than at any other time in U.S. history.
There was a major media reporting of that - the reality of jobs actually moving is far different. The reality of doing it successfully is also far different.
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Yeah, tell that to the unemployed IT workers, people with degrees, who ended up working for the TSA. I watched dozens of people fall to the axe because of "alternative" resources.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: I watched dozens of people fall to the axe because of "alternative" resources.
That of course doesn't have anything to do with the market as a whole.
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Hehe. Keep believing that. I'll go with my direct experience.
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OK. I watched a ton of people I worked with (30+) get let go and the very next week, a bunch of Indian faces replaced them.
Out of the 200 or so Indians I've worked with in the last 12 years, I can count on 1 hand how many of them actually knew what the Hell they were doing. I'm not talking about doing development work either. I'm talking doing mundane admin tasks, installing Windows, rolling back a virtual machine, installing software for testing on Vista and Win7, testing a newly built installer, ... simple stuff!
I sh*t you not, the Indian guy I replaced at Blue Cross couldn't figure out how to drag and drop to copy a file in Windows! I have 10 eye witnesses to prove it.
Please, tell me again how I'm thinking emotionally and ignoring the evidence?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not an Indian basher. I bash idiots who have no clue how to teach themselves anything or have any motivation to do so. It doesn't matter if they hold an H1B or not. I've also seen way too many U.S. people who couldn't do the same things. We got rid of one white guy last year because he took 3 months to do a simple setup capture repackage, and never did get it right.
I currently work with 5 Indian guys, all of whom know what they're doing in their respective jobs and I appreciate that. I've just seen way, WAY too many who don't.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: OK. I watched a ton of people I worked with (30+) get let go and the very next week, a bunch of Indian faces replaced them.
I worked for a company that has and does have a very successfully managed outsourcing initiative.
The first doesn't mean that every single job will be outsourced. It doesn't mean that many will be. It doesn't mean that those that are will be successful.
Matter of fact the very attributes that make that company so successful at outsourcing are the very factors that will make it impossible for most companies to even attempt it and it also diminishes the probability that companies that do try it will be successful.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: Out of the 200 or so Indians I've worked with in the last 12 years, I can count on 1 hand how many of them actually knew what the Hell they were doing.
Which has nothing to do with anything previously discussed. Except perhaps to support my contention that most companies that try outsourcing will fail.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: I'm talking doing mundane admin tasks, installing Windows, rolling back a virtual machine, installing software for testing on Vista and Win7, testing a newly built installer, ... simple stuff!
When I interview developers I don't care if they know how to do any of that.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: Please, tell me again how I'm thinking emotionally and ignoring the evidence?
Because a single case does not lead to the conclusion that the industry will collapse.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote: I've just seen way, WAY too many who don't.
And yet you are claiming that all development jobs are going to be replaced by outsourcing?
From that it can only following that you are claiming that no software will be ever be developed again in the developed world. And obviously that isn't the case.
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