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PhilLenoir wrote: "You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts."
I absolutely LOVE that. Perfectly sums up a lot of posts I've seen in a lot of threads.
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That sounds real good but is a bit hypocritical.
It is easy to believe that they present the "facts" when they present some thing that we don ' t know much about.
But in the few cases when I have known a lot about the subject they presented, the facts were "their own".
I'm not saying that they always present "their own facts" but I know some cases where they did.
So saying You can chose your own opinion but not your own facts is ....
OK, now I understand, it is not hypocritical -
What they are saying is that while you can not chose your facts, they can.
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PhilLenoir wrote: Other comments on this thread have pointed out that there are still feedback channels, but feedback is no longer "packaged" with the story. I think that this is appropriate. If the article is about opinion, then it sounds like comments will be allowed, but when it is reporting a study or an observed fact trolls may undermine the credibility of the story.
Sorry but no.
First in point of fact there are a number of real science journals which almost never run refutation articles. Even when a previously posted article was flat out wrong. So a scientist might be proven right with more articles but finding out that one was wrong is often a matter of carefully sifting though a large variety of material to figure it out.
Second it is often the case that articles published in a journal is controversial because it is seldom the case that journals are willing to print the 2000th time the same experiment was run, nor are scientists willing to attempt to publish something like that. Thus they do in fact publish something 'new' which, in some cases, is just wrong. How wrong it is depends on many factors of which critical commentary might or might not reveal. And it is that commentary which likely reveals whether it is a fact or not or subjective or not.
And none of that is surprising given that scientists and editors are human.
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It seems to me that what you mean by "comment" you take for what is, in common journal/scientific community parlance, known as "peer review". Short of botching up a meaning taking peer for pier and regurgitating Joyce somehow, I doubt that the same level of intelligence is at work.
And this sifting operation. Try replacing that reading with actual experimentation.
Have you ever attempted to read an "abstract"?
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RedDk wrote: It seems to me that what you mean by "comment" you take for what is, in common
journal/scientific community parlance, known as "peer review".
Not as far as I know in terms of journals. Peer review in journals is generally a process where articles are reviewed before publication as a first pass to verify the veracity of what the article states. It isn't of course a guaranteed process.
Once articles are published then it is often possible to post "letters to the editors" (in what ever form that might take) where someone takes exception to some part of the content of the article. Whether these actually get seen publicly depends on the publication and editors.
RedDk wrote: And this sifting operation. Try replacing that reading with actual
experimentation.
Not sure what you mean. The normal scientific journal process can be broken into several categories.
1. "That is astounding". Then others will try to repeat the experiment.
2. "The experiment is flawed". Then others do not try to repeat it because it is already known to be flawed.
3. "I don't care". No one does anything because the results are "expected" or at least uninteresting to most of the audience. These might be replicated some years, but not to many, afterwards by various students but only to a limited extent.
What most definitely doesn't happen is that every reported experiment is repeated multiple times. At best a flaw might be discovered in an original study because someone first accepts the first experiment as a given, tries to create a follow on experiment based on the first which fails, and ultimately discovers while looking at the failure that the original experiment cannot be replicated.
RedDk wrote: Have you ever attempted to read an "abstract"?
Not exactly sure what you mean by "attempted" but I have read many abstracts.
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RedDk wrote:
Get a life hothead
That has nothing to do with the discussion nor does it relate at all to my demeanor nor emotional state.
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And THIS is neither a comment OR a thought. It is a REACTION.
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I stand by my opinion. 
If a journal has integrity, and a report it published is proven to be wrong, then I hope that it publishes a correction. I'm a "scientific programmer" and I've seen plenty of poor science in my career.
Opinions are not facts. Opinions can and should be debated. Facts can and should be challenged. I argue that an article about opinion is appropriate for open comment whereas an article about fact needs more rigour than aired opinions. I'd be happy to see a false fact refuted or a questionable method challenged, but too often this is not what happens in this type of comment. Trolls sidetrack logical discussion by spreading misinformation or taking things off at a tangent. If comments aren't strictly moderated, then they often detract. Clearly this journal lacks the resources or doesn't wish to tackle the complications of moderating discussion.
I think that peer review is the best way to tackle poor science. If a report is shown to be erroneous then the journal should be notified. If they fail to publish a correction then they should be challenged.
In a perfect world, commenters would be as honest and forthright as I believe we both are; comment would enlighten and inform and bad science would be exposed quickly. As you point out, we, the editors and the scientists are all human and therefore flawed; hence the world is far from perfect.
Thanks for the feedback!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Unfortunately, I'm afraid our mutual friends' idea of "tenure" has somehow scrambled his respect for authority.
A short story: once I lent my Selectric to a classmate of mine so that he could finish typing his thesis and get it in on time. You know, nice IBM ball-type, easy to smack the paper on the roller with power-assisted fingers onn the keys ... had the machine for a couple hours ... I could hear him typing in there, right? Silence. Becomes ominous after a couple minutes. "Knock". "Knock". I open my door. He's standing there holding the machine. Says he, "Thanks. But K. has volunteered to accept my payments of $1.00 a page to do the typing for me. Guarantees he'll get it done before DEADLINE."
Moral of the short (ripstop nylon various colors):
Don't sacrifice qualia for the sake of defining it.
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PhilLenoir wrote: If a journal has integrity, and a report it published is proven to be wrong,
then I hope that it publishes a correction
They do not in general. There are several paths that occur.
1. The original author retracts the article. Then they publish that.
2. Some people object to the article. The journal will publish some of the criticisms.
3. Many people over many years object to the article. Then the journal itself might retract the article.
4. Other people create experiments (not replicate) which demonstrates results that are by definition inconsistent with the original article. Some of these might get published. I suppose it is possible that the journal might bias the selection process for new articles if 2/3 was occurring but otherwise it would be a normal selection process.
PhilLenoir wrote: Clearly this journal lacks the resources or doesn't wish to tackle the
complications of moderating discussion.
This however isn't a "journal". It is a magazine devoted to popularizing science for the general public. The general public is the ones that are supposed to respond.
PhilLenoir wrote: I think that peer review is the best way to tackle poor science
Please post a link that shows that Popular Science has a peer review panel in place for articles.
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Quote: This however isn't a "journal". It is a magazine devoted to popularizing science for the general public. The general public is the ones that are supposed to respond.
Last time I checked journal was a synonym for magazine. Certainly my thesaurus thinks so. Let's not start throwing syntax at each other, it doesn't further the debate. Agreed that the purpose is to disseminate science to the general public. I'm not sure I agrre about "supposed to respond", I suggest that's up to the publisher and clearly they think not. Esentially, if enough of the general public don't agree with the publisher they will vote with their feet.
Quote: Please post a link that shows that Popular Science has a peer review panel in place for articles.
I never stated that it does. The point here is that general comment is NOT a valuable means of reviewing poor science. You, yourself, point out ways that corrections may still be arrived at. I'm not aware of any general criticism about the quality of Popular Science's reporting. Maybe you know differently, but 50% of the people I work with are applied scientists and I've never heard any disparaging remarks. Please enlighten me if you are aware of continuing quality issues.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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PhilLenoir wrote: Last time I checked journal was a synonym for magazine
Valid point. I am using journal to differentiate those magazines that are specifically intended to publish results about experiments and which articles are almost always written by scientists and whose audience is largely scientists (professionals.)
And they often use "Journal" in the name like the "New England Journal of Medicine" and that IEEE allows one to "Browse Journals & Magazines".
PhilLenoir wrote: Esentially, if enough of the general public don't agree with the publisher they
will vote with their feet.
Journals don't target the general public and although it might be possible that a specific journal might cease to be if they lost their focus it would take a very long time and replacing them, and a replacement would be needed, would be difficult.
PhilLenoir wrote: I never stated that it does.
I am talking about Popular Science and I thought your statement was referring to that.
PhilLenoir wrote: The point here is that general comment is NOT a valuable means of reviewing poor
science.
And thus to make the previous comment very specific....
Popular Science does NOT have a peer review process. So the ONLY way to receive comment is via a popular mechanism.
Does that make it clearer?
PhilLenoir wrote: I'm not aware of any general criticism about the quality of Popular Science's
reporting. Maybe you know differently, but 50% of the people I work with are
applied scientists and I've never heard any disparaging remarks
All magazines (journals included) make mistakes. Now the only dissenting opinion that one will likely ever see for Popular Science is if the editors withdraw an article or post an opinion themselves about it.
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Journal vs. magazine: I understand your differentiation, although I was using "Journal" in a generic sense. Maybe it's because I'm an aging Brit!
My comments about comment and dialogue (sic - I'm an aging Brit!) are specific to PS and certainly not to Scientific Journals (as per your intended use). If you had asked me 20 years or more ago about reducing public input I would have been aghast, but I've seen so much perversion of facts delivered as vehement comment that I find myself sympathetic to PS' argument. I guess that we may have to agree to differ on this.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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PhilLenoir wrote: 20 years or more ago about reducing public input I would have been aghast, but I've seen so much perversion of facts delivered as vehement comment that I find myself sympathetic to PS' argument.
Yes but 20 years ago it was much harder to comment. And the editors filtered the comments. Not to mention that for most people they didn't have as much to comment on - there is much more material and it is much, much easier to access.
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Well, they have the facts (from an study previously done), so I think they took this decision consciously. Although i'm sure moderation would have been better, probably they don't the resources or will to do it.
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It is their decision to make. Certain organizations have a focus on doing certain things. I take it that their focus is on distributing news. There are places that focus on distributing comments. That promotes a shared experience.
In older days if you wanted to comment on the news you wrote a letter to the editor. Today there are folks who don't know what a letter is, or even how to write.
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As someone trained in the sciences, I appreciate and support Popular Sciences' position.
Scientific certainty is not debatable! For some reason, people not trained in science try to speak about science. They form uneducated opinions. They write to their Congressional representatives. And, as Popular Science suggests, that affects public policy.
Moderation is not an answer when an article spawns thousands of comments. Further, who is going to moderate?
In reputable science publishing, articles are refereed by peers before publishing. But those publications are normally not of interest to the average (or even above average) reader. Consider Physical Letters B[^]. Open any of the Show preview links. Do you think that the non-science reader will have a clue? But worse, in today's society, the non-science reader thinks he has a right to comment. Not true! His uneducated comment may skew public policy.
When reporting certainty, no comments. In the case of Popular Science, because articles are not refereed, arguments in favor of comments could certainly be made. But because Popular Science has a certain influence, I stand with the editors in making their decision.
Gus Gustafson
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It certainly is a foolproof way to shut down any and all that may disagree with something Popular Science has stated or taken a stand on.
The real question is who benefits most from shutting down comments, the readers or Popular Science? Readers of popular science are not forced to read comments any more than they are forced to read the original article. My personal opinion is that any site that shuts down commenting is taking an easy way out with dealing with dissention.
Q
How many times in the past has the general consensus within the approved scientific community been wrong?
When the majority within the scientific community were wrong were they open to dissent from the minority?
I believe we all know the answer to that question and what better modern day example for this then the Global Warming debate?
Without taking a stance in favor of or against the theory that our planet is facing AGW (man-made global warming) I believe its pertinent to ask if mankind would have been better served if all dissenting opinion about AGW had been shut down from the start? With a sizeable number of professionals in various scientific fields of study coming out against it as well as even more switching sides to now oppose AGW its easier to see that this is not a settled debate and yet that is exactly the ideology about AGW that was initially pushed to the rest of us.
So I ask again, is it really a good idea to shut down all voices just so you can shut down those voices that some find undesirable, dis-tasteful and even outright insulting?
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Global warming is a great way to illustrate the challenge here. Globally we have little to no policy to address the issue. Why? I suggest that it is precisely because of open and uneducated denial, if not downright misinformation by big oil.
I come down firmly on the side of man-made global warming and the resultant cliamte change. I also come down firmly on the side that syas that it's already too late and that we need to be putting policy in place not so much as to slow or reverse it, but to deal with the fallout. Last month's Conservation Magazine had a good article on exactly this.
I think that poor debate becomes a ready excuse for inaction, so it is better to have the debate in better fora than web comment sections.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote: Thoughts/comments?
The article itself certainly suggests elitism at work. It suggests that they are doing this as a service to protect how the readers might form an opinion. Which of course is patronizing. And it certainly seems to implicitly suggest that it is the average reader that is prone to this.
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Elitism? How kindly would you take comment about how to program from a road mender. Probably as well as the road mender would take your comments on mending roads.
Clearly the publishers did not take this decision lightly and nowhere did I see a hint of elitism. The brightest of us are open to suggestion and when we are not specialists in a subject and rants will tned to polarize us. This isn't healthy.
Removing the conduit for trolling is a price I think worth paying in this instance.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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PhilLenoir wrote: How kindly would you take comment about how to program from a road mender.
Nonsense analogy.
First the comments are not about periods and syntax but rather about the content of the articles. That the correct analogy would be if I wrote a program and someone then commented on the user interface.
Second the POINT of Popular Science is to bring science to the masses. It in NOT intended to bring science to other scientists. So now your analogy should be that I wrote a program specifically intended to help a "road mender" mend the road or at least learn better ways to do that and that person then wanted to comment on what I was telling them and I said no.
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Not so.
The point of the anology is that different people have different sets of expertise. that's not elitist, it's common sense. Allowing anybody without the qualifying knowledge to freely comment cannot add anything. The source of the knowledge in this case would be experts in that field; even if they are mistaken experts (for every expert there's an equal and opposite expert!) Those with limited or no understanding in that field are unlikely to offer meaningful contribution. This is made more obvious in your observation that this journal is supplying information to non-experts. The argument that not facilitating comment is elitist does not hold water.
To refine the anology: would having the road mender review your code add anything or allowing you to inspect a road patch? I think not. It doesn't mean that you or she is in an elite, only that you are not qualified so to do.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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