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Those of us who are Navy Nucs deal with this topic a lot. The academic depth and rigor of Naval Nuclear Power School, combined with the “hands on” training in prototype, lends itself to whether we are/were “engineers”.
When I worked as a control systems engineer with Barber-Colman, the PEs I associated with referred to me as an engineer, but not as a PE.
They relied on me for the theoretical, analytical, and operational information related to control systems (particularly computerized ones), mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, and computer systems engineering, without any criticism of me not being a PE.
I never represented myself to them as PE, explained I was a Navy Nuc with 2 years of college in chemistry and physics. Usually, they were sold at "Navy Nuc".
From https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/engineer
engineer, noun, en.dʒɪˈnɪr
- a person whose job is to design or build machines, engines, or electrical equipment, or things such as roads, railways, or bridges, using scientific principles:
- a civil engineer
- a mechanical/structural engineer
- a software engineer
- a person whose job is to repair or control machines, engines, or electrical equipment:
- a computer engineer
- The engineer is coming to repair our phone tomorrow morning.
- a train driver
Professional Engineer
from https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe
To use the PE seal, engineers must complete several steps to ensure their competency.
- Earn a four-year degree in engineering from an accredited engineering program
- Pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam
- Complete four years of progressive engineering experience under a PE
- Pass the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam
Sticking to the actual meaning of the word “engineer”, those of us who design and build software using scientific principles are, indeed, engineers.
There is a good argument to be given in the context of software, that coders are not software engineers.
By being a “coder”, I do not mean a programmer who just mindlessly churns code out of some “stream of consciousness”. I mean it to primarily be one who thoughtfully writes code, uses design patterns and other “that’s how most everyone else does it” processes, rather than apply good engineering principles to develop according to a well-thought out plan that is flexible enough to accommodate changes along the way.
Being a coder seems to be the most prevalent with traditional HTML/CSS/JavaScript programming where the pressures of production, or the lack of interest in the engineering aspect of making web front ends, bypass the benefits of engineering. But I see it more and more on the backend, too.
In my experience, the application of value engineering is the most overlooked aspect of implementing software engineering.
Whether to work our software projects (or even just individual tickets) as engineers or coders is a choice. Engineering a project takes a little more time than coding, but the value returned from engineering is almost always noticeably greater over the full SDLC than just coding.
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When I started working at IBM in 1979, my job title was Field Engineer.
I was neither an Engineer nor a landscaper.
At some point the Engineering community complained that non-Engineers were being called Engineers. IBM changed our title to Customer Service Representative.
As for Firewall Engineer, I agree. What the elephant?
Cheers,
Mike Fidler
"I intend to live forever - so far, so good." Steven Wright
"I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met." Also Steven Wright
"I'm addicted to placebos. I could quit, but it wouldn't matter." Steven Wright yet again.
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You all wanna hear something funny? My title is Associate Software Engineer. I just read this thread two days ago. About 10 minutes ago, my boss told me there is a reorg going on. My duties and salary will remain the same, but my title is changing to Developer I.
SOMEONE told my bosses about this discussion!!! 
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what's your degree in? curious.
The boss has no clue. That crap goes way up in corporate HR. where there is no O2
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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My main mode of wheeled transportation involves a vehicle built and sold by Hyundai. I therefore subscribe to their "MyHyundai" service which allows me remote access to functions of the car from the comfort of my Android phone.
I pay about US$199 per year for that.
Now the app is telling me that I can't use it because I must first upgrade to the latest version of the app.
But the Google Play store tells me that the latest version of the app is not compatible with my phone. So I either upgrade my phone or I can't use the MyHyundai service at all.
This must be the kind of problem that you get when an application is created by code monkeys.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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Richard Andrew x64 wrote: created by code monkeys
That would be an improvement.
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Can you use MyHyundai services through a web site?
/ravi
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Well golly! I didn't think of that. They do have a website. I'll have to go there sometime soon and see.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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Or designed by the sales team.
A home without books is a body without soul. Marcus Tullius Cicero
PartsBin an Electronics Part Organizer - Release Version 1.4.0 (Many new features) JaxCoder.com
Latest Article: EventAggregator
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Mike Hankey wrote: Or designed by the sales team.
But still implemented by monkeys! 
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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Agreed
A home without books is a body without soul. Marcus Tullius Cicero
PartsBin an Electronics Part Organizer - Release Version 1.4.0 (Many new features) JaxCoder.com
Latest Article: EventAggregator
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We all know an infinite number of monkeys will eventually write the complete works of Shakespear, but the same can't be said for sales monkeys.
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At least MyHyundai is not essential, we recently got a notice that our bank no longer supports our current android version and Google play said the latest version was not compatible with our phones. Then the network provider decided to discontinue 3g. And I was becoming pissed off with Samsung so new phones all round in our household.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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It could be considered essential.
One of the things I use it for is to lock the car remotely after it's been serviced because the technicians always park finished cars in their lots without locking them.
So I can make sure it's locked during that window of time of after it's finished and before I show up to get it.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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After two androids from two different manufacturers both received only one security/os update at year one, I finally caved and switched to iPhone.
This was a few years ago when there were lots of scary security issues that were not being patched for my device.
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Has it occurred to you that you are about to get emails to buy a new car?
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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My dad a few years ago was all gung-ho about Hyundai's BlueLink app, which let him get some data about his Palisade on his phone (he's not a smartphone guy). It didn't work. Even after a clean install, it always got stuck in a launch/crash/relaunch loop, and I could only get control of the phone back after a full reset. I told him clowns put the app together and the best he could do was to complain at the dealer to pass it on up and wait for a new version of the app. He ended up changing phones (LG -> Samsung), which did work. I guess Hyundai only tests with the most popular brand, even both ran the latest version of Android.
A few years later, he changed his Palisade for a newer year model. He was struggling again with the BlueLink app. It was still linked with his older vehicle, that he traded at the dealer. We could still track where it was, how much gas was left in the tank, turn on the engine remotely, etc.
Try as I might, I cannot find where to unlink from the existing car and link it with the new one.
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Oh my, that's frightening!
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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Richard Andrew x64 wrote: Oh my, that's frightening!
Well, it's simply linked with the car in exactly the same way it was when my dad owned the vehicle. It's doing what it should be doing by design.
There's nothing that would prevent anyone in a similar situation and with malicious intent from remotely starting the vehicle numerous times a night, and if it's parked in a garage attached to a house, asphyxiate an entire family. This sort of thing has been in the news before (although maybe not intentionally and done remotely as far as I know).
Manufacturers either don't think about these things, or don't care.
As I said, my dad isn't a smartphone guy and doesn't think about these things (or doesn't think about potential ramifications); had I known ahead of time before he traded in the car, I would've told him to at least (a) get the dealer to unlink the vehicle from the app and (b) disable the garage door opener, as I'm sure the current owner - unless he's replaced it with his own - could drive by and open my dad's garage with the button in his car.
Heck, I've lost count of the number of times where people have shown me their "new" car they bought second-hand, and I've shown them the previous owner's phone details, and things like where they live and work because they forgot to clear the "Home" and "Work" buttons from the GPS software.
If dealers don't smarten up, car owners need to.
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I've been steeped in Microsoft development since my first PC in the late 1980's. And I have not investigated Apple since the Apple ][e came out.
How does Apple spying compare to Microsoft spying? (More, less or the same?)
I'm trying to establish whether my Sister will gain any privacy by switching to a Mac.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
modified 6-Jul-24 16:46pm.
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I'm not a Mac user (although I own a Gen 5 circa 2010 iPod Nano that I like very much because it offers gapless playback) but it seems you can use a Mac without having to tie it to an Apple ID. But by doing that you won't be able to:
- download apps from the Mac App Store
- use iCloud services (like iCloud Drive, iCloud Photos, etc.)
- sync data across Apple devices
- use Apple Music or access your previous iTunes purchases
- use services like FaceTime, iMessage, or Apple Books
- get software updates through the App Store (you can still get macOS updates through System Preferences
If you're a dev, I expect you'll need an Apple ID in order to use Xcode but am not sure.
/ravi
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Is it possible to purchase Mac application software from third parties?
Don't tell me that the only place to get applications is from the Apple app store?
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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I doubt it. Methinks one would be forced to buy them from the App Store.
So unlike the MS Windows ecosystem where there are large numbers of freeware, freemium and commercial apps that don't require you to buy them from the Microsoft Store.
/ravi
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Richard Andrew x64 wrote: Don't tell me that the only place to get applications is from the Apple app store?
The EU has been after Apple for years because of that. Moreso on the phone/tablet/watch than the Mac, perhaps, but it's my understanding they're locking down the Mac more and more with each new version, not the other way around.
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Yes, it is. We use non Apple software on the Mac in our theatre. Fully supported.
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