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I used it to teach programming to an Art Major (female), and to both my boys that have mathematical minds.
All 3 are developers now and do very well in several other languages.
The result was that they learned well what they should and should not do in programming because it really takes away (C# does) the good-programmer responsibility of not doing stupid stuff like accessing linked lists with modify before addressing the possibility of collisions.
Having said that, I think the basis and the simple things need to be learned first, not matter what the language.
Beginning with concepts that would allow the student translate their programming logic to any other language is paramount to their formation.
My two bits.
Tony G.
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I'd say yes - it makes pretty sure the code works before it lets it run (unlike Python), it starts simple, but builds to some incredible power (unlike PHP), and it's a real language (unlike VB).
The error messages and the IDE itself are second to none, and the integrated debugging support is worth it's weight in gold for a beginner.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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I hope they will learn how to use that debugger - I've seen courses where there was not a word about it...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.”
― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
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Show her yourself - she'll spread it round the class ... and maybe the teacher will learn something!
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Ahhh memories of 'learning' BBC basic and amazing the Teacher with the trance on or tr. on command...
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She already has some problems to accept authority of teachers - I would not ride that horse if not necessary...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.”
― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
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If a so-called teacher doesn't know their subject, they deserve contempt. No one, teachers included, deserves respect merely by virtue of their job title.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Do we live in the same country?
(I used to be like her - it wasn't easy on me, so I decided to try and lead her on different paths...)
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.”
― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: Do we live in the same country?
Geographically - yes.
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: (I used to be like her - it wasn't easy on me, so I decided to try and lead her on different paths...)
At age 58, I am like her. As you say, it's not easy, but all I need out of life is to support my family and enjoy my hobbies. World-conquering can wait.
My biggest problem is managers who see my age and experience, and want to "promote" me from specification, design, and coding to a managerial or a "people-facing" position.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote: My biggest problem is managers who see my age and experience, and want to "promote" me from specification, design, and coding to a managerial or a "people-facing" position.
Hit them hard and run!!!
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.”
― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
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I'm retired now but I love the tech so much that I avoided managerial positions like the plague. I have been a tech lead but that's as close as I went.
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I've worked hard to stay at the bottom of the corporate ladder.
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Absolutely: respect is something you earn, not deserve.
Being treated respectfully until you prove yourself unworthy is a different thing altogether.
Generally speaking, those who demand respect are the least worthy of it in my experience.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Please be more respectful
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OriginalGriff wrote: Generally speaking, those who demand respect are the least worthy of it in my experience.
I'm reminded of a story from years ago--I think it was from someone here on CP - who was riding a subway, and witnessed some sort of altercation, where one of the guys involved at some point just blurted out, "show some respect, I'm a manager"...
Somehow that one always stuck with me
(I'll be impressed if someone manages to dig it up based on only that...)
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I grade on effort these days. I'd rather work with someone that is ignorant and trying hard than someone that knows everything and doesn't care.
As for the C# question - see Griff's first response, that's what I wish I had said.
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In the US, unlike in decades past when public education was actually education, teachers get education degrees. They are taught they can teach any subject because they are "educators". In a lot of STEM-type classes (like programming), it is quite likely one or more students know the subject matter better than the teacher.
Even back in the late 80s/early 90s when my oldest son was taking computer-oriented classes in high school, he knew the subject matter better than the teacher who was an "educator" but had no background in computer science.
In the days when dinosaurs walked the earth, at least my 9th grade science teacher had a BS in General Science and actually knew her subject. same for my math teachers (BS in Math).
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I got an entire degree in Computer Science and there wasn't a word about the debugger...
Bond
Keep all things as simple as possible, but no simpler. -said someone, somewhere
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Most of my education and early career were on VAX/VMS where the debugger is near impossible to use.
We did use Turbo Pascal a bit as well, which was nice.
Not having a usable debugger leads to a better developer with better debugging skills. A debugger is a course of last resort.
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We hadn't had a debugger too - but we did learned about the ideas and how to implement and use them (in code) to debug the behavior of our app...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.”
― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
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Uh... VB.NET is very much a "real" language.
Though I am completely fluent on C#, I prefer working on VB.NET, which can do anything the C# language can do without all the extra complexity that C# has been introducing.
Both C# and VB.NET, along with every other .NET language, all compile to the CLR and generate the same executable code.
I don't know why people keep on saying that VB.NET is not a "real" language except for the fact that they do not like to [program in it. That is fine. But it is best to remember that there is no such thing as an "unreal" language...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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I am curious as to why you do not consider VB a "real language".
That is like saying that - for example - German or Italian or Swahili or Punjabi are not real languages. I am actually and currently fluent in five different spoken languages -- and yet it would never occur to me that a language I do not speak or use is not a "real language".
Point is: let's all stop making these silly arguments about a programming language or the other. Statements of that kind they only serve to reveal an elitist approach or a deep misunderstanding of the language's purpose.
Plenty of excellent and successful developers grew up with Basic, Visual Basic, VB.NET... only to transition to other languages because of many different reasons... just NOT because those languages are not "real languages". I wonder what would you even say about ASM...
Just my two cents.
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Second (or third, or whatever--grunching)
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Scratch[^] remains my choice for so many reasons, mainly because learning about sw engineering is not about learning a programming language, but learning about programming theory.
Then C# is a good high level language to start with. As would by Python.
I started with assembler, and this taught me far more than programming : a lot of computer architecture knowledge, which I still find useful today.
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Scratch is good, especially for elementary age learners, some adults too. My wife was (retired now) the gifted teacher at an elementary school and was given the edict to teach about robotics and programming. She was able to learn then teach Scratch to her kids. They took off on it, as you would expect with gifted kids.
I’ve given up trying to be calm. However, I am open to feeling slightly less agitated.
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