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I'll admit I have a lot of reading to catch up with to reach the level of understanding about networks that I'd like to have. Well, specifically, subnetting.
After some going back and forth with ChatGPT for about half an hour (trying to get it to rephrase its answers to try to show it that previous answers were clearly wrong), I've only managed to become less certain about many things, but I'm hoping I've at least come to one correct conclusion:
I want the valid IP range on my home network to be restricted to 192.168.X.Y, where X ranges from 1 through 31, and Y ranges from 1 through 254 (with the understanding that, for all intents and purposes, you never directly assign [whatever].0 or [whatever].255 to a device).
So, the subnet I should be using is 255.255.224.0 (so for the third octet I could use everything between 1 through 31).
What I haven't been able to get out of ChatGPT is whether a machine configured with an IP between 192.168.32.1 and 192.168.255.254 would fail to reach the rest of the systems on 192.168.[1-31].[1-254]. It sounds right to me, but until I try, I'm just guessing.
Generally, I configure all of my systems with a static IPv4 address. And I want all systems within my network to be able to see each other, just to keep things simple.
Am I right at least so far, with that subnet of 255.255.224.0?
Further discussion:
The idea is - for the third octet - the 255 devices under "1" would be my physical machines. My laptops would be under "2". Printers under "3". My first VM host would be at 10 (192.168.10.1). VMs it hosts would be 192.168.10.2 through .254. My second VM host would be 192.168.11.1; its VMs would range from 192.168.11.2 through 254, etc.
Of course that leaves some big gaps within each range, but it does keep things organized (at least in my mind it does). I'm no network admin; do people segregate things this way?
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dandy72 wrote: do people segregate things this way?
No, it is overkill. If the number of hosts is under 255, and I suspect for a home network this is the case, You can just use a traditional netmask like 255.255.255.0. If you want to "organize" hosts you can still do something like 1 to 30 computers; 40 to 100 VMs; printers, something else.
If you set a netmask like you want 255.255.224.0, that is also, ok but it's not going to exclude the hosts with 0 and 255. So a host like 192.168.2.0 is perfectly acceptable Only the end for the range is going to be treated differently: the 192.168.31.255 is going to be the broadcast address for your network.
Sub-netting is usually done for the exact opposite of your reason: when you want hosts not to be visible outside their own sub-nets.
More thoughts:
- set up a DHCP server for random things that land on your network (phones, friends, etc.). Give it a range distinct from your fixed hosts.
- set up a DNS server and give meaningful names to your devices instead of relying on IP addresses.
I'm using a RPi for both the DNS and DHCP server. It is more than enough for my needs.
Mircea
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Some good thoughts in there, thanks for that.
I probably do have less than 255 devices (VMs included), but if I want set ranges within a total max of 255 entries, it won't be long before I run out of space and just go back to having to find a gap somewhere, and it'll be ad-hoc again.
I didn't bring DHCP into the discussion just to keep it simple. I do want to let my router assign (say) .1 through .25 for random devices that show up, but stick with static IPs for everything else that should "always be present".
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Start thinking about subnet as a single number, such as 24 for 255.255.255.0. This makes your life easier, when working with subnets, not equal to 24 and 16.
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TL;DR; you are correct and devices with an IP of 192.168.32.0 (and up) would not be on the same subnet as a device with an IP of 192.168.11.1 ... so should not be able to communicate directly... and the TCP/IP stack(s) would/should try and "route" the packets via something that knows about "routing" (or in this case not at all because such subnet addresses are internal/private/non-routable)
Oh boy, I hope I've got all these details correct 
I don't think of a subnet as a number... I always think of a subnet in terms of the binary mask... network mask
... 255.255.224.0 ... is ... 11111111.11111111.11100000.00000000
The 'network' of a device can be found by ANDing the device IP with that network mask (gives the subnet address). If I do the same with another device IP and I find that the resulting values (i.e. subnet addresses) are the same, then the 2 devices are on the same 'network/subnet' and can (copper and switches willing) communicate directly
If the value I get after applying the mask is different then the devices are on different subnets and the TCP/IP stack will/should send it to something that can "route" between these subnets.
So...
192.168.0.1 masked (ANDed) with the 255.255.224.0 pattern will be 192.168.0.0, or 11000000.10101000.00000000.00000000
192.168.31.1 masked with that pattern will be 192.168.0.0 ... same subnet is local so can communicate directly (and at which point ARP kicks in)
192.168.32.1 masked with that pattern will be 192.168.32.0 ... 11000000.10101000.00100000.00000000 (see the new 1 in the third octet which corresponds with a 1 in both the mask and the IP address) ... subnet values are different so different network/subnet, needs to be routed
Of course, if the a router is set up in an interesting way, and knows how to route for both the 192.168.0.0/19 subnet AND the 192.168.32.0/19 network on the same piece of copper, then it might/should work (DHCP et.all. complexity though)
And if a mask is set incorrectly somewhere (e.g. 255.255.0.0) that it'll maybe work one way and not the other
And it all depends on the TCP/IP stack. I don't know whether ARP understands netmasks so whether a device on a different subnet is plugged into the same network cabling could obtain the hardware network address regardless of subnet... so this is more about routing than security.
The good thing about doing it the way you want to is it makes you think about details, and not just plug simple numbers in like 255.255.255.0 ... all good fun
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There is another range of IP addresses 10.*.*.* for larger internal subnets. I would use that instead of 255.*.*.*
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Not dissing Chris, but the stupidity of Microsoft never ceases to enrage and mystify me. Most companies are started from enraged employees/customers that know they can do it better, and they do... anyway...
So, let's talk Windows 11 and the bs that MS blows our way for UI improvements. Rounded icons, ads in the startup bar, ever invasive AI, yada yada. Well I work on a laptop 99% of the time. I'm not that mobile, I just like the size. I have Windows 10 and 11 on multiple machines. Today all I wanted to do on my Windows 11 laptop was to turn off the touchpad when a mouse was connected. It's a fairly common thing users want to do.
So, where do I find it? The setting is hidden under a drop down bar where you just have to be intuitive/desperate enough to keep clicking. Help is useless, and most of the doc on Windows 11 trails the ui... what a steaming pile of debris.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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Windows 11 needs a massive, massive cleanout. The full Marie Kondo treatment.
The update UI that wraps the older UI that wraps the win 10 UI which wraps the Win7 UI which wraps the Win95 has, I feel, reached the tipping point of collapse. Just right click on the desktop and then select "Show more options" as Exhibit A that the UX Product Manager just gave up. Removing quick tasks from the contect menu of taskbar icons was their way of saying "I hate the World".
cheers
Chris Maunder
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What I find amusing is when I use programs that draws client window frames using the Win7 UI style. I would prefer they go back to the XP or W7 UI style because I detest the phone-style UI they use currently.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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charlieg wrote: ads in the startup bar
The worse the economy gets the more prevalent this will become. The big wigs know something the average person refuses to believe as they get brainwashed by TV.
But, you know... happy hump day. 
Jeremy Falcon
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"happy hump day"
that used to mean some nsfw different to me, but then I got older.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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 If memory serves "Hump Day" was Wednesday many moons ago.
But I agree: "The worse the economy gets the more prevalent this will become."
When technology doesn't get it right, cutting corners is one of the causes.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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I agree with you but this also has a lot to do with the deteriorating quality of young professionals who work at the big vendors.
Many documents have been written in the past few years reporting on how younger people are coming out of university with an overblown sense of entitlement while really having nothing to do offer in terms of critical thinking skills and technical intelligence.
Many professionals are seeing this with the increasing mess in web development products that has been made possible by the radical decoupling of components from more centralized processes (ie: ASP.NET WebForms), which may not have been the most efficient but were easier to learn, easier to compartmentalize, and made for better project estimates.
Now what do we have? A entire sundry of tools, tool-sets, and frameworks that increasingly rely on more arcane and ambiguous syntax that together is enough to drive one to drink.
This is why the PHP language is still holding its own in the web arena...
We also have the deteriorating quality of decision making at Microsoft, which I knew would happen under Nadella's leadership.
I have worked with quite a few Indian managers during my career, and though technically capable they are arrogant, and have little capability in big-picture strategies, relying on a just a "get it done" attitude while attempting to cut costs at the same time. This is also why you rarely see top quality and innovative software products coming out of India.
The time is coming where if Microsoft keeps on turning everything into varying levels of rocket science for its products, which is hardly required for what a lot of us need to do, another company will eventually move into Microsoft's declining space.
For example, does anyone really need to use SQL Server any longer when we have the MySQL and PostgreSQL database engines, both of which have large support communities as well as direct technical support.
Without Windows, Microsoft would be nowhere, and with the sagging influence of cloud computing, Nadella's original goals are starting to get a black eye from which he may never recover.
Still, I prefer using Windows to Linux. But if necessary, will make the switch when the time comes...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Steve Naidamast wrote: I agree with you but this also has a lot to do with the deteriorating quality of young professionals who work at the big vendors.
Oh, totally agree with you there. Big or small vendor. There are a lot of young ids out there who took an online course for six weeks and think they're engineers or managers now. It's market over saturation because too many people are in it for money now. IMO no course student or even someone fresh out of college deserves a 6-figure salary. Earn it. Learn the ropes first. The cruft needs to be weeded out.
Steve Naidamast wrote: Many documents have been written in the past few years reporting on how younger people are coming out of university with an overblown sense of entitlement while really having nothing to do offer in terms of critical thinking skills and technical intelligence.
IMO this is a direct result of the lies and brainwashing going on at universities. They're a cult now. They don't teach. They indoctrinate.
Steve Naidamast wrote: Many professionals are seeing this with the increasing mess in web development products that has been made possible by the radical decoupling of components from more centralized processes (ie: ASP.NET WebForms), which may not have been the most efficient but were easier to learn, easier to compartmentalize, and made for better project estimates.
Well, with me being a web purist, I never liked Angular for instance. Which took the "all encompassing" approach too. It was always slow and bloated and learning it didn't help you really learn web dev. But, as you eluded to, the opposite is also true. JavaScript has this thing called "javascript fatigue" because if you sneeze there's a package for that. You sneeze again... there's a second package. If a rookie dev who has no idea what they're doing gets on a project, it can be just as bloated if not worse. So yeah, damned if you do. Damned if you don't. 
Steve Naidamast wrote: We also have the deteriorating quality of decision making at Microsoft, which I knew would happen under Nadella's leadership.
I don't know if it's just MS though.
I'm not gonna mention the name because I think of some of the peeps there like brothers, but I just finished a contract for a company with annual revenue of over 3.5 billion. Not Microsoft size, but a large enough sample size of employees to get an idea from. And let's just say, the vast, vast majority of people there or "experts" from vendors I talked to while there couldn't find their way out of a cereal box. I don't know man. Just seems like the world is too afraid to think.
Steve Naidamast wrote: I have worked with quite a few Indian managers during my career, and though technically capable they are arrogant, and have little capability in big-picture strategies, relying on a just a "get it done" attitude while attempting to cut costs at the same time. This is also why you rarely see top quality and innovative software products coming out of India.
I will say, I've also worked with one particular Indian-American manager before who was downright abusive. So, I feel your pain. Just for balance though, I've had some Indian-American coworkers who were awesome people. You win some. You lose some. But, I totally get your point. I've worked with folks offshore in India and it was always either just blindly say yes to everything or just never talk to you at all and make whatever - even if it's wrong. Typically I blame management for that though - typically. And Lord knows, I've seen devs over here display the same traits.
Steve Naidamast wrote: The time is coming where if Microsoft keeps on turning everything into varying levels of rocket science for its products, which is hardly required for what a lot of us need to do, another company will eventually move into Microsoft's declining space.
IMO if MS would've just focused on Windows and Office they'd be unstoppable. They've spread themselves way too thin and now even Windows is suffering.
Steve Naidamast wrote: Still, I prefer using Windows to Linux. But if necessary, will make the switch when the time comes...
You should definately try it man. With all the spying going on in Windows and Macs now, Linux just may be the last hope as far as privacy is concerned. Best starter distros are Ubuntu and Linux Mint. Mint will feel at lot like Windows and Ubuntu will have more bells and whistles. Both are good starting distros.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy...
Thank you for your very informative reply...
I am in the middle of developing a large military simulation workbench. As a result, I have a lot of research to when it comes to the AI aspect of it. Just now, I am completing a basic decsion-tree algorithm, which is based upon a standard B-Tree implementation.
If I was at the beginning of this project, I may have considered doing the entire thing on Linux in Python. However, I started this project quite a while ago and have been working on it just about every day.
Except for one assembly, the entire project is written in VB.NET.
I am sort of waiting for JetBrain's Rider IDE to enhance its WPF GUI-designer and then I may make a purchase to see if I could get my code over to Linux.
I have the Ubuntu Workstation installed, and it really has come a long way in ease-of-use.
So moving to Linux is a backup plan I have been keeping in the back of my mind.
BTW, all of the Indian professional technicians I worked with prior to 2000 were wonderful people and quite capable technically.
Yet, sometime after 2000, India saw a new avenue to make money as started cranking out technicians over there like a flood. Most of them were not all that good.
However, I got to work with a team over there and they were just like the older technicians I had worked with. Friendly, capable, and willing to have open minds.
I got friendly enough with one of them that she sent me a picture of herself...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Pardon me for being nosy, but what's a military simulation workbench?
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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The military simulation workbench I am developing will provide the basic capabilities, which includes the necessary AI routines to any developer who would like to develop a war game/military simulation.
To date, I have just about completed a database sub-system that will provide for all the data for a land-based simulation. Still a few tweaks left to put in it but they will have to wait until the 5th version release. I am working on the 4th version release now.
I have completed a distance calculation (distance between two hexagons on a map board) that makes use of the standard "Manhattan Distance" algorithm for such calculations.
A path-finding algorithm has also been implemented, which relies on the distance calculation.
And finally, I have just about completed a basic decision-tree algorithm that when provided with both a unit's data and a number of conditions is able to provided response as to what action a unit should take (ie: attack, retreat, ...)
You can download the complete project from my website, http://www.blackfalconsoftware.com
The software is called the "AGKWorkbench"...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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This sounds awesome. 
Why would you make the project available for download? It sounds like it would be worth a lot of money.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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This is a project I have wanted to do for many years.
However, for good number of years, decent information on both the graphics and the AI was scant at best until more recently.
The result is that I have a lot of learning and research to do. This makes it a little difficult for me to request monies for my work... At least now.
Even the with third release, which is what is currently available for download, I found quite a number of issues with the GUI and the database, most of which should be corrected in the upcoming release.
However, the work on all the updates to the HELP file will take a little time and I have to finish the testing of the GUI.
It is a lot of work but it is slowly coming together...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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charlieg wrote: ads in the startup bar
I haven't made the jump to 11, but I know it'll happen. Has nobody yet figured out what IP(s) can be safely blocked to prevent those from being downloaded in the first place, without breaking the rest of the OS?
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I am about ready to put microsoft.com in my HOSTS file to have it blocked. I am certain that will have some interesting fallout.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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Wait until you read about their plans for W12. YIKES!
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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And their plans for Recall[^] which really make you want to "get your ass to Mars". 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Richard Deeming wrote: And their plans for Recall[^] which really make you want to "get your ass to Mars".
What worse... Microsoft (Pest) or Musk (Cholera)?   
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Look, arguing about which colour horses they're riding, or who the other two are, won't avert the apocalypse you know!
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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