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Well, I guess if you have another job lined up, you can walk away over something like that  . I'm not dumb enough to quit a job without another one lined up, especially in this economy. I don't live in Silicon Valley, so its not like there is another job around the corner. There just aren't alot of companies worth working for in this area. There used to be a ton. Now its all fly by night 5 person places that'll be out of business in a week. I actually had a place want to interview me for a contract position and they couldn't even tell me how long it was for!! lol... they said "come on in for a few weeks, we'll see how it goes and go from there". Translation: you are going to have your contract terminated in 2 weeks after you finish this little side project.
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i didn't say walk away, never hurts to ask... that applies to all contracts... i always negotiate contracts
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I was talking to a co-worker about this. He made a good point... if you ask your boss about it, you just made it necessary for him to care about all the legality. If you just quitely use it under the radar, he probably wouldn't even notice .
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well yeah, at this point its too late! ...that's why you have to read BEFORE you sign! 
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btw, the boss couldn't disagree with my rationale for not signing that non-compete. "i was doing this job before i joined here, and i'll probably be doing it after i leave." (non-compete specified that i couldn't work for anyone deemed a competitor for 1 year after leaving)
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again... I don't care what they think. And I won't work for anyone who thinks that way. 
My feeling is that general code that isn't specific to any particular application is mine; code that is specific to their application is theirs. Yes, my last two jobs have had some sort of vague agreement, and I believe they refer to applications code, not library code, so I feel confident in my stand.
With my current job, it's easier because "they" write in VB -- ergo, any C# I write is clearly not theirs. 
But no way does anyone own what I write on my own time.
Also, look at it this way -- is it stuff you could download free from CP? Certainly if you use Sacha's code they don't own it. Why not write it, publish it, then use it at work? This is why I spend so much time generalizing so much of what I write.
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Well... lol, you remind me of a guy I used to know. He was all super cocky and always had this attitude like he would fight "the man" to the death to protect his IP. But lets be realistic... if push comes to shove, how many of us can afford to get lawyers involved? The company certainly can, but on what planet does your average software engineer have a few hundred thousand to fight a legal battle?
If its VB at work and C# at home, then yeah, they will have a much harder time proving anything.
I know this goes against the open source / code project mentality, but I don't really have much interest in posting my production quality code.
Yeah, the whole point of the library is to make everything reusable and generalized. Thats kind of the point. I don't really write apps in my free time, I just write reusable components.
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SledgeHammer01 wrote: on what planet does your average software engineer have a few hundred thousand
to fight a legal battle?
Exactly; they would gain nothing by suing me.
SledgeHammer01 wrote: protect his IP
There's no such thing.
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I meant if they said "we own your code... or we can do this in court", would you go to court? I mean in your case its not even the same language, but lets assume you had a C# job and wrote code at home in C#? You'd probably just hand over your code and start looking for another job out of resentment right? . The guy I used to know would always say "I'll sell my house!! my car!! everything!! and fight them to the death in court because I know I will win and then I will sue them for millions!!" lol... he lived on a different planet then the rest of us apperently.
My point is, if the company *wants* to be a-holes, they definitely can and will win simply because they have the bigger wallet.
Either that, or its easier to just not use it, lol.
If you had written it *before* you started and planned on using it at work, or even thought you *might*, you can just list it on the prior art agreement with a "free source license". Back in the day when I slummed in the MFC / C++ world, I had a custom control library that I spent around ~10 YRS on. I had every intention of using it and listed it on the prior art. At first, I was kind of an a-hole about it and didn't want to check in the source for it, but after the boss yelled at me, I checked it in .
Oh well... I'm kind of leaning towards not using it at this job anyways because I don't want the hassle and my boss isn't the kind to appreciate it :p. I'll just prior art it at the next job.
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Unless there is something in your contract that states that ALL work produced while you work for the company belongs to them, they haven't got a leg to stand on. Without that clause in the contract, and assuming they don't have a legal department working for them, they'd probably not attempt anything (unless your library became hugely successful and a great moneyspinner in which case they might choose to take a punt at it).
The bottom line, without a legal team on board, they'd have to retain counsel as well which is not a cheap thing to do.
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SledgeHammer01 wrote: I meant if they said "we own your code... or we can do this in court", would you go to court?
No, to the local newspaper - in an attempt to find out how messy it can get
I are Troll 
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SledgeHammer01 wrote: I meant if they said "we own your code... or we can do this in court", would you go to court?
nope. I would hand them some crappy look a like library that barely functions and is almost 100% to cause an error and then move on...lol
" What code? on this pc? no code on this pc are you crazy? oh on that pc? nope none over there either."
oops i forgot to mention the drive hidden in my sock drawer that has my backup files in case my pc ever gets stolen again.....
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning.
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SledgeHammer01 wrote: we own your code
No one owns my code. I have copyright, but I don't own it.
SledgeHammer01 wrote: would you go to court?
I wouldn't, and if they did, so what? It wouldn't affect what I do.
SledgeHammer01 wrote: , if the company *wants* to be a-holes, they definitely can and will win
But they won't gain anything -- it's all loss.
"The more you tighten your grip, Tarken, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." -- Leia
SledgeHammer01 wrote: if the company *wants* to be a-holes
Then few will work for them and do a good job.
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I had this as a clause when I worked at Accenture.
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My understanding about Accenture is that they thought you should be working at all times, so you had no free time to cook up ideas.
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Not wrong 50-60 hour weeks were not uncommon and I wasn't even in the consulting stream. My overtime took my pay nearly up to theirs with one key difference: I actually had a basic understanding of Computer Science, rather than a 2:1 in history with a two week Java course in Chicago.
When I got there, they made me write asynchronous http handlers from scratch (my previous job had been as a sole developer churning out a SOAP/ASP.NEt application to handle online billing so you can imagine how hard that was). Instead of letting me cut any code I had to totally (and I mean down to psuedo code/flow chart level) specify the classes I was due to write. In the end I coded it at home (in my copius free time) and reverse engineered the PRINCE2 style cr*p when I got to work. I had a hell of a time, and it knocked my confidence for a good few months. I was shifted to the web team where I settled nicely for two weeks, then they moved me into UAT test, this knocked me back again as I thought they'd done this because I'd made a hash of it. Later the project leader said he saw what was happening, but couldn't get hold of me to let me know that this was purely because they needed a "resource" on UAT post-haste and I was the only one who didn't have long term commitments. The move was actually to ensure they could renew my contract and bring me back to phase 2.
I eventually left when they agreed to put me in charge of a team. First I was put into a dev team with one of the consultants in charge (2 weeks Java + on the Job experience) as he needed to get promoted otherwise he'd be sacked in the next "laddering round". To be fair, they did put me in charge of the UAT test team as I'd knocked about 2 man-months off the process, that's when I left. When I left uni I could design a simple eight-bit processor from logic gates, but they thought the best use for my talents was kludging UAT scripts in test partner. Having said that, when it started going well I enjoyed it (except for the hours) it was just the lack of prospects that made me leave.
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Many companies require you to sign an IP agreement that gives them everything you write. It's hard to refuse when there are ten other people competing for the same job. In some places (like California) agreements like this are illegal.
Sometimes they give you a reasonable agreement to sign when you accept a job, then a few days later after you've turned down other job offers, they give you a more restrictive agreement to sign. This should be illegal.
modified on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 10:04 AM
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Wow, what industry do you work in? Those agreements sound horrible. My ugly agreements I sign are less about IP rights and more about going to client or competitor, etc.
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
— Hunter S. Thompson
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Mine have always been about IP.
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I live in California and I had to sign a "they own my brain 24x7" clause. Dunno if its enforceable in court though. As I mentioned in another post, I used to know a guy who called BS on things like this and said if it happened to him he would go to court "because its illegal and I will win". I would just roll my eyes and laugh a) he doesn't have the money to go to court [well, maybe he does, but he certainly doesn't have enough to flush $200k down the toilet on a lawyer] b) the company has alot more resources and lawyers then he could possibly ever have -- so the company could certainly beat him in court just by dragging it out and bankrupting him. He might win in the end, but if he can't pay, no lawyer is going to take up his fight for free.
I had another co-worker try to sue the state on a frivilous lawsuit and he lost. So the state immediately turned around and p0wned him for lawyer fees. $200k. Lolz. Right now I think he still owes them $200k, but hes trying to find somebody to appeal it.
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Unless you signed something crazy, I would not worry much. However if you plan on bringing your "bag of tricks" to work, and to be able to use it in the future or at other jobs, could you possibly apply for a license for it that you own. That way, you can, in writing give permission to your current company to use, and use when you're gone, but also reserve the right to use it on future endeavors.
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
— Hunter S. Thompson
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Another guy mentioned that using it "under the radar" won't raise any flags, but if I bring it up to my boss to make it official, he'll have to care and flags will be raised for sure :p. I haven't decided if I'll "under the radar" it or not. I don't really plan on leaving at this time, so it would be kind of lame to not use it .
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It depends on what you signed when you were hired. Some companies say that anything you develop anywhere is company property. Some say that if it's done with company resources oor on company time, it belongs to them. If you developed it at home, and it's just a generic library/assembly) that contains miscellaneous techniques and code containing no proprietary company data or code that was developed under the corporate time/resources umbrella, he'd probably have a hard time legally seizing the code as company property.
I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
I have never been called out for developing at home because I make it very clear to perspective employers that I code at home as a hobby, and that any techniques I learn in the course of work is impossible to "un-know", and short of proprietary info or algorythms, I apply knowledge gained at work (and elsewhere) in my own personal code. I've never had anyone call me out on it, and I've been coding for a living for 30 years.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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Nice. You really are an outlaw .
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I found this statement on a forum discussing this very matter:
You can distribute your code under an open source license and you should try to convince your employer to allow you to "contribute" to the package which would allow you to maintain your software on company time.
This sounds like a viable approach.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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