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BabyYoda1-Dec-20 7:09

1-Dec-20 7:09

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
is that there are huge numbers of people who think reality will bend to their wishes if they just pretend hard enough that it will.

Very true. But not in the way I imagine you intended it. I think this statement applies to many on both sides of the pandemic issues.

W∴ Balboos, GHB1-Dec-20 7:19

1-Dec-20 7:19

Indeed, far beyond the pandemic issue (as discernible from my including the phrase "with the pandemic as just another example").

It is now common to call things one disagrees with 'a hoax' and that, it seems, suffices for many to make things OK and the way they want them to be. If, for simplicity, we narrow it down to the COVID epidemic, those state that belittled the severity have paid and are paying a heavy price.

For that matter, there are sundry religious groups that will not accept medical intervention and put it all in "HIS HANDS" - with unnecessary fatal results. Unfortunately, even prayer can be (and very often is) subverted to this concept. And, of course, the "anti-vaxxer's" who haven't a clue to what life was like before the basic immunizations. The are, for now, often protected by the herd immunity conferred upon them by the rest of us . . . but that only goes so far as the Amish discovered when they had a Polio outbreak. Now, I believe, they do accept vaccines.

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

BabyYoda1-Dec-20 7:34

1-Dec-20 7:34

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
If, for simplicity, we narrow it down to the COVID epidemic, those state that belittled the severity have paid and are paying a heavy price.

Actually not true. Most people around where I live do not pay much heed to this pandemic and most have been just fine. That was my original point, you want it to be true that this pandemic is bad for everyone, but it just isn't. You want reality to bend to your point of view (the pandemic is as bad as you think it is) but it just isn't.

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
immunizations

Speaking of which. Maybe you can explain something that I feel must be obvious but that I just don't get. If you vaccinate yourself and your kids then why do you care if anyone else does or does not vaccinate? You're protected, right? I see lots of people get so mad at someone who does not vaccinate and I do not understand why.

W∴ Balboos, GHB1-Dec-20 7:46

1-Dec-20 7:46

BabyYoda wrote:
Most people around where I live do not pay much heed to this pandemic and most have been just fine.

Aside from the word game "Most have". repeatedly used - a vague term, the reality is that your little place of "around here" is irrelevant - the country is losing now 2000 souls each day. Infection rates (carriers and proportional to hospitalization, ICU needs, and ultimately deaths) have increase at frightening but not unexpected rate.

So you, looking out your window, think that reflects reality beyond the next hill? That's either very naive, very selfish, or both.

Meanwhile, your vaccine comment: great idea - and aside from the human loss, who's left to pick up the pieces when the vaccinated fill the hospitals and/or their corpses line the streets? You really need to brush up on just how great the "good old days" were - typhoid, tetanus, smallpox, and quite a list of others that made life suck for all involved.

Humans are a communal species and they need to cooperate as a community to achieve pretty much anything. Think about that when you next use your computer plugged into an outlet in the wall receiving power from a romote plant built and fueled by others in a chain of cooperation.

It does matter that "we all do our part" - and that includes not being vectors for disease transmission to others.

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

BabyYoda1-Dec-20 9:24

1-Dec-20 9:24

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
think that reflects reality beyond the next hill?

No, of course not. But you do, which was my point. You think that your reality is the reality. It isn't.

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
the country is losing now 2000 souls each day.

Also not true. Remember when the CDC said that only 6% of the Covid deaths were caused by Covid itself? You're trying to project your reality as if it's the same as actual reality. You continue to prove my point. Just because you think it's reality, does not make it so.

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Meanwhile, your vaccine comment: great idea - and aside from the human loss, who's left to pick up the pieces when the vaccinated fill the hospitals and/or their corpses line the streets? You really need to brush up on just how great the "good old days" were - typhoid, tetanus, smallpox, and quite a list of others that made life suck for all involved.

I don't think you understood what my question was. Or if you did, I certainly do not understand your answer.

W∴ Balboos, GHB1-Dec-20 9:34

1-Dec-20 9:34

BabyYoda wrote:
Also not true. Remember when the CDC said that only 6% of the Covid deaths were caused by Covid itself? You're trying to project your reality as if it's the same as actual reality. You continue to prove my point. Just because you think it's reality, does not make it so.

I remember that inane logic from a CDC that was busy destroying it's reputation.

It's the same logic as if, when someone is hit by a car and killed: you'd blame it on their per-exisiting heart condition.

At present, it's clear you'll accept any data that reinforces your narrative. Try bleach . . .

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

BabyYoda2-Dec-20 1:06

2-Dec-20 1:06

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
when someone is hit by a car and killed: you'd blame it on their per-exisiting heart condition.

Actually, that is what you are doing. I am surprised you don't see that.

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
data that reinforces your narrative.

What is my narrative?

OriginalGriff1-Dec-20 10:47

OriginalGriff

1-Dec-20 10:47

BabyYoda wrote:
If you vaccinate yourself and your kids then why do you care if anyone else does or does not vaccinate?

If you know that your car has seatbelts and airbags, does that make it OK for you to drink and drive?

Of course not. You would be putting others at risk because you were being stupid / selfish. And that's why D&D (or DUI in the US) is heavily frowned upon - because those that do it are potentially driving into a bus stop queue of pregnant nuns and killing them all.

Just because you have been vaccinated doesn't mean you aren't infectious. And while one person remains at risk of catching the disease you are vaccinated against, it will survive and probably breed. Think about it: we've had vaccines since 1000AD and in all that time we have eradicated one disease. Just one - smallpox. And that only because of a concerted effort worldwide to vaccinate and still took 20 years!

Can you even begin to imagine the damage Covid could do if we take 20 years to get it under control? Because I can't. The deaths, the economic damage, the long term medical effects are already close to causing irreparable damage in the first year alone!

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!

BabyYoda2-Dec-20 1:05

2-Dec-20 1:05

OriginalGriff wrote:
it will survive and probably breed.

But your protected. So? I think your point is that you believe it is for the greater good of all. Fair enough.

I guess for me, I don't care if other people do stupid things and get hurt.

Nelek1-Dec-20 11:27

Nelek

1-Dec-20 11:27

BabyYoda wrote:
If you vaccinate yourself and your kids then why do you care if anyone else does or does not vaccinate? You're protected, right?

Not necessarily. The vaccine will reduce the chances, yes. But not avoid it 100%.

IIRC to "defeat" a disease you need a 95% to 98% of the population to be "inmune" so the virus will dead in a natural process. And that % of not vaccinated might be already full with people that can't get it because of medical conditions, age or other biological reasons.

Have a look to rubeola / measles, it was supposed to be "defeated" and it is coming back pretty fast in europe.

As others said... either we can't really do anything in our own, we need to act together for almost every aspect in our life. This is not an exception.

M.D.V.

If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
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BabyYoda2-Dec-20 1:03

2-Dec-20 1:03

Nelek wrote:
But not avoid it 100%.

Oh, that's the first I have heard that. Interesting.

Nelek2-Dec-20 2:08

Nelek

2-Dec-20 2:08

There are many vaccines that can't make you (as one person) 100% immune. But if enough people is let's say 95% immune is almost the same.

M.D.V.

BabyYoda2-Dec-20 3:15

2-Dec-20 3:15

I see. That makes sense. Thanks. Thumbs Up | :thumbsup:

Gerry Schmitz1-Dec-20 18:05

Gerry Schmitz

1-Dec-20 18:05

You're in your bubble, maybe underground, and because "it" hasn't touched you, "it just isn't bad".

Then you spin off about getting vaccinated and ask if "that's ok?"

May the farce be with you.

It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food

BabyYoda2-Dec-20 1:02

2-Dec-20 1:02

Gerry Schmitz wrote:
and because "it" hasn't touched you, "it just isn't bad".

Then you have misunderstood my point.

Mike Hankey1-Dec-20 7:18

Mike Hankey

1-Dec-20 7:18

No it proves that a lot of people are of a mind that its all about them. That everything and everyone are there but to serve their needs and above all that they somehow deserve it.

I'm not sure how many cookies it makes to be happy, but so far it's not 27.

JaxCoder.com

W∴ Balboos, GHB1-Dec-20 7:25

1-Dec-20 7:25

There was an article I read, yesterday, basically ripping a new one for those who just had to have gatherings for Thanksgiving (and for that matter, the giant party goers, &etc.). It's content is most definitely in violation of the Lounge policy - I wouldn't pretend otherwise.

Pretty much, but in many more words, it is in agreement with your post.

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

Maximilien1-Dec-20 6:09

Maximilien

1-Dec-20 6:09

The few things we've learned so far :

Our healthcare system was not prepared for that; for decades we focused on different kind of illnesses (I assume mostly cancer and other non or low infectious diseases)

Our dependence on 3rd party (countries) for our chain of supply for critical products (PPE, apparatus, vaccines, medications...)

The Old Folks Residences are way too easily infected, and because of close care needs, it is hard to keep them infection free, especially for people who need close physical contact for cares.

No one and everyone is to blame.

I'd rather be phishing!

W∴ Balboos, GHB1-Dec-20 7:34

1-Dec-20 7:34

Maximilien wrote:
for decades we focused on different kind of illnesses

A a pandemeic response group had been set up (in the US) and it was disbanded (May 2018).

I'll stop here lest I make this soapbox fodder.

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

Dan Neely1-Dec-20 10:17

Dan Neely

1-Dec-20 10:17

OriginalGriff wrote:
And what have we learned from this pandemic? Sod all, it looks like ...

The most realistic part of zombie movies was all the Sunshine | [little ray of sunshine]

s hiding bite wounds.

Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius

Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt

GuyThiebaut1-Dec-20 6:54

GuyThiebaut

1-Dec-20 6:54

What are you hoping that a bunch of software developers, scattered around the world in different countries, will do based on your post?

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

― Christopher Hitchens

Gerry Schmitz1-Dec-20 18:13

Gerry Schmitz

1-Dec-20 18:13

In case you've been spending all your time gaming.

I hope it helps someone realize there is a problem. Just like the misconceptions about "rags" or a proper N95 mask.

What's your point?

It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food