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As a freelance consultant, I work in different time zones for different clients. All hours inclusive. No after hours.
Life is a computer program and everyone is the programmer of his own life.
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I was working for a major auto manufacturer and I was on call for the system whose output would allow the assembly plant to be operational the next day.
Mobiles didn't exist in '69, and I didn't have a landline 'cos it was too expensive.
There's a problem.
Night shift operations phone a cab which comes to my place & wakes me up.
I walk to the nearest phone box (they did exist in '69) and phone operations.
Sometimes you could thell them how to fix the problem over the phone.
If not, they would send another cab (I didn't have a car either) to pick me up & drive me to the data centre.
After many, many months of that, my boss eventually got permission from his boss to pay for getting a phone installed in my house.
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Some stuff just needs to be fixed before the market opens
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Twice now (in this role) I've been contacted, on my personal mobile, whilst away on Annual Leave...
First time I went into work (was flying home anyway - they could swing if I'd had to take an early flight) - had to "invite myself" (aka gate crash) the meeting about the "emergency". Turns out it was nothing to do with me - although I did point out a few things that stopped them making a complete hash of the "recovery"
Second time I was not only on leave but also in an A&E department waiting for my wife to get some treatment. I advised them over the phone where to find the documentation on how to proceed and added a few additional pointers.
There won't be a third time.
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My 'boss' will send emails with what he needs as they come to mind - often he's working the very late shift in binges.
I get the email when I connect and work from those. During the intersection of our online time we clarify (via email), along with asynchronous communication. It works both ways. (No one else want's to deal with me - he's my filter, too)
But - my time is mine - they'll need to give me a substantial raise if they want more than they get. An unlikely scenario. Even back in the days when beepers first were all-the-rage I was not going to consider carrying one unless I was paid for it.
Even with all the fun of coding, what the ![Elephant | [mastadon]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/elephant.gif) 's the point if you don't have your time to enjoy otherwise (for any size paycheck)?
All this being said, I don't work by the clock - but it's personal loyalty driven.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I'm a freelancer, working with SMEs and am normally the only IT-literate person involved with the organisation. As such I don't have a "manager"; I charge by the (quarter-)hour (except for development work) and I work when, where and how I want to. However, as it's me who built the clients' systems, if they fail then occasionally I am in some small way responsible for that failure. (Maybe I didn't account for a database being unavailable, or disk space has filled up). I also tend to know the clients' businesses very well, and usually understand the impact of system problems on their business better than they do themselves. I'm not looking for new work now but, when I was, there was also the question of reputation to consider. No-one wants to be that guy who caused a business to fail because he was too into a TV soap to answer the phone when the system went down.
So issues happen out of "office" hours (what are they, anyway? As above, I work when I want. Usually that's from about 11am to 2pm, then another chunk about 4pm to 6pm. Occasionally 9pm to 11pm, or 1am if it's fun). In those situations I weigh up the impacts on the client of not getting their system back quickly, and on me being inconvenienced. If it's an evening issue, I might drop them an email to say "I know about it, will fix 1st thing" then address it at 7am the next day. I think being proactive is important. All my systems are configured to track exceptions (not just errors, but unusual events - like attempted login from an unknown user) and many have external monitoring. So I very often know before the client does if something's up, and I'll let them know immediately if I possibly can. Give them a plan and an ETA if something needs fixing. What clients hate most (in my experience) is uncertainty. They can live with their system being down for an hour or two if they can be confident it will be back up at NN o'clock. Staff can take an early lunch, or they can bring forward a team meeting, or staff can let their spouses know they'll be home a bit late.
I've never had a client so much as mention negatives with my approach, far less complain or send their business elsewhere.
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I'm a freelancer as well, but the nature of our work is quite different. Still, in broad strokes I find your comment to be relatable content. +1
Real programmers use butterflies
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I'm on standby sometimes (and get compensated for it), so in those cases I have to fix the issue 
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My manager is very respectful of my time, so if I get a request to work on something after hours then that means that it really is urgent and critical. I try my best to fix after-hours issues ASAP, but sometimes the problem is too big and it needs to wait for the whole team to coordinate on the following day. If the issue is urgent enough, then the entire team may be called in after hours rather than waiting.
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I occasionally do extra hours but being on unofficial call - I learnt very early on that's a thankless task so:
- Will it destroy life as we know it? Maybe on a relatively localised level?
- Is it a life and death problem?
- If its not life and death is someone's wellbeing at stake, more than just the CEO missing their lunch?
- Even a dog, cat in danger? Bunny Rabbit? An Owl? Sheep? Blue Whale?
- Did you (very stupidly)say you would support it out of hours?
- Are you paid a bounty for being on call out of hours?
- Do you get paid overtime for this, and if so is it the correct rate?
OTHERWISE DON'T DO IT. NOT AT ALL, NO NEVER, DO NOT RAISE EXPECTATIONS
First...Your employer should have capacity to cover these situations. If its all on you what happens if you move on, or have an accident? They are in trouble. You need a second and probably a third. One of you probably does need to be on call but you all the time? No.
Second...They should have processes and procedures in place to enable some kind of service to continue should the IT system have a problem. In short proper business continuity plan.
So lets look at that urgent fix required issue again from the perspective of your health. They didn't offer you a payment to be on call out of hours? They just expect you to be on call? You aren't getting time to relax there, and because you don't get paid for it you will feel used every time the phone goes or you get a text\whatsapp\other message. This is actual harassment you are being treated badly, your stress is part of the profit margin. Your employer doesn't care about you really. Don't stand for that. Many companies do give a bounty for out-of-hours work, this is money you are paid just to be on call, you are then paid overtime if you have to contribute. In other words you are paid money to sit and watch TV, play games or code a demo project for posting on CodeProject, then paid even more if you have to drop everything and switch the mail server off and on. That's a good feeling, but you still need time away, so you can have a couple of beers or go to a nigh club (post covid) or climb a mountain without fear of contact from your work. Other companies don't pay the bounty but they do give proper overtime. Its not such a good feeling but at least you get compensation and again as long as you do take time away your mental and physical health is maintained. These are good employers they know a happy healthy employee is a productive employee. They also pay you money, which is an audit trail, which means they can't breach working time regulations (cynical observation but true). Meanwhile a bad employer will say something like "we are all professionals here, we get the work done, if that means working a little longer sometimes then we will". When you hear that beware, if you allow them they will expect you to be on call 24/7 365 days of the year. There is a solution to this...
Be clear with everyone that you won't work out of hours except in exceptional circumstances, just politely but firmly decline invitations to work. Do not justify, just say it is out of hours work and you are not doing it. In short be passively assertive, it usually works, if it doesn't get out fast its a bad employer.
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As the owner of a small software company, and employer...
I agree and disagree.
First, it can and will happen in todays 24x7 world.
Second, Everyone should get paid for it. I have the employees track their time/events. Just getting the message on their phone means they had to think about work. Not Fair!
So, by tracking it, we can see WHO is causing this. We found one guy is 80% (Since we work off-shift), and he is usually asking a question that he could spend 20 minutes searching. But being a manager, he does not want to. We started billing the client for these interruptions, and they quickly stopped.
We do NOT do regular overtime. WHEN overtime is required, I consider it a FAILURE of management (including me), and I pay my guys proper over time. BUT I DO NOT BILL the client the higher rate. So that OVERTIME COSTS ME DOUBLE. This ensures my involvement to rectify the problem quickly. (I know other companies who make their numbers by driving this. And using salaried employees. This is wrong. This is squeezing the grapes harder to get more wine. It's bitter wine that sours the name!)
At the end of the year, employees get a bonus that reflects:
1) Their Efforts/Growth
2) Their Responsiveness to the customer (with the expectation they DEFEND their family time)
3) The company profitability
4) Payment for unused vacation time (no carrying forward unless pre-arranged)
We encourage employees to spend some time sharpening their skills on their time, when it works for them.
Areas THEY are interested. One did 2 years of Java training we paid for. Never used it. Don't care!
My goal is to have an employee who can leave at any time, but never wants to. That's RESPECT!
I think if companies start there, with respect. It goes further!
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My manager respects me so he doesn't ask me to fix stuff in my personal time. On rare occasions it happened and I gave all the help I could, which ranged from "I will think about the problem and fix tomorrow" to "right away".
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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I am not asked to work after hours but there have been times I and others had to, and on weekends, to get the job done. Usually it is a an issue or problem that is urgent, and not so much with new development, etc.
I don't have a salary. I get paid by the hour, so at least when I work after hours, I'm getting paid.
overtime is paid time and a half.
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I have been phoned 3 times while being on vacation, in all three times I offered to take the company phone with me but I told I would not have it with me. They called me, I saw the phone call in the evening and I called back the following day. Logically the call costs were for the company and the work time was accounted with factor 2,5x when I came back to work.
But although I usually leave the company phone switched on during the evening it is almost always muted. I rarely get a phone call after office hours and I almost never answer them, only if I am the one triggering that phone call, like trying to speak with a specialist, to my boss and similars. If not... I call back the next day.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I had once a manager that called after hours for minute tasks. I canceled call and call him back at midnight. He was slow learner, it took him three times. After that, all was done in working hours
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By the simple expedient of making sure he never got my mobile number.
The exception was trade shows - for that, mobiles were needed for meeting up and so forth when traveling off to Dusseldorf, the NEC, Excel, etc. to set up and work the damn stand.
So he got my mobile number.
And two weeks after the show he called me into his office: "Why didn't your mobile work? I rang you last night!"
Simple: I changed the number as soon as I got back from the show ...
"But what if I need you out of hours? Give me the new number."
Are you offering to pay for my phone? No? Then it's nothing to do with you. Are you offing to pay me to be on call 24 / 7? No? Then don't call me after hours ...
He got the message, though reluctantly. 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Much the same here. I had my own mobile and turned down the one offered by the company because I knew what taking it meant. It wasn't that I'd have to fix code, but there are always pants-wetters who need immediate responses. Once, they tried to call. "We tried calling, but it always went to voicemail!" --"Yes, it was turned off. I have it for my convenience."
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I handled this by turning off my phone when I went to bed.
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Five people in the world have my mobile number. One of them I married. One of them is actually a client, but they're a very good client and they look out for me.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Mine's much like yours (even the married part). Also, my progeny.
This got slightly messed up because some of the COVID entry methods were: 'call (MD) when you get there and well tell you when we're ready for you to come up'. Even that was never a bother until recently where one doesn't seem to get the message that if you call my cell I'll almost certainly not answer because I didn't turn it on or didn't have it with me. Even when it's on and in the same house it's often off in some room ringing to lonely air.
And 100% absolutely no one texts me - I ignore the whole texting system. If it's not important enough to talk to me or even leave a message than I don't want to be bothered.
A very peaceful existence at so many levels.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I know about a subcontractor who used to be treated very badly by a junior manager.
Daily, at exactly 5:45 pm (office closing time at 6 pm), this junior manager used to come to the subcontractor's seat, and give him a big assignment which had to be delivered by 10 am the next morning. This subcontractor, who is my friend, got so bugged up that he quit that job.
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I guess that was a part of a plan, sounds terrible anyway.
Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer.
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Rule #1: When dealing with pieces of that, I don't do anything unless it is requested in written form. That way the time of the request is logged and he gets the blame for not having planned beforehand and for asking overtime - which is a big thing as the company can be fined VERY stiffly if they ask too much overtime.
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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