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To be clear I'm not saying there's a distinction. I was saying I don't think there's such thing as truly unbiased.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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Of course there are unbiased views! Those agreeing with my views are unbiased!
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I Understand. Bias has a human quality to it.
Objective is much more neutral. Like math.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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In politics, most definitely in the international variant, what is 'objective' depends on subjective opinions. Most 'facts' are cultural artifacts.
You may of course pull up some objective, undisputable facts. Then you apply these facts in your argumentation, in very subjective ways.
Is the play 'Erasmus Montanus' by the Dane Ludvig Holberg well known in English speaking countries? Rasmus proves that his mother is stone: A stone cannot fly. Little Mother cannot fly. Then Little Mother is a stone. ... His mother is shocked to be a stone, so her son has to turn her back into a human again: A stone cannot talk, Little Mother can talk. So Little Mother is not a stone.
This play (you can read it in an English translation at ERASMUS MONTANUS OR RASMUS BERG[^]) is always presented as a comedy, and most reader / audience fail to see the satire - how we in academic and political discussions juggle all sorts of 'facts' around to reach whatever conclusion we want. In discussions, I rarely see real 'facts' being presented at all, and if they are, most of the time they are applied as arguments in more or less dubious ways. Unless you agree with the conclusion, of course. Little Mother was very happy about her son's second fact, but not with his first.
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Coming a from mathematics and engineering background, I view objective facts as founded in the laws of nature, math and logic, etc. Math, logic, etc. can all be made to have tricks. Erasmus play is an example.
You may have heard of the Missing dollar riddle. An accounting trick.
Missing dollar riddle - Wikipedia[^]
True arguments from both sides can have objective information delivered to bolster their cases. However, I dispute that most facts are cultural artifacts. Some facts can have a culture tint, but not most. If they did we would never settle anything. One long endless argument unless one has objective facts to weigh the scale. True both sides can be right or wrong at the same time, so Flip a coin.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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jmaida wrote: Coming a from mathematics and engineering background, I view objective facts as founded in the laws of nature, math and logic, etc
For math prove that parallel lines do not intersect in a Euclidean space.
For logic prove that when a=b and b=c that a=c.
Myself my subjective experience is that both of those are true. If you can prove them then I would really like to see that.
jmaida wrote: I dispute that most facts are cultural artifacts.
Which of course is a subjective statement.
jmaida wrote: If they did we would never settle anything. One long endless argument unless one has objective facts to weigh the scale. True both sides can be right or wrong at the same time, so Flip a coin.
Vast majority of agreements by humans are based on compromises. (And I am not suggesting I know of ones that are not but rather I just do not agree to absolutism.)
People who believe that the world is flat still manage to get on airplanes that fly half way around the world to attend flat earth conferences.
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axioms,
not subjective about artifacts,
compromises are just more sophisticated coin flips to settle
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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jmaida wrote: axioms,
Which is just defining what I said.
jmaida wrote: not subjective about artifacts,
Your stated opinion is subjective because that is what opinions are.
jmaida wrote: compromises are just more sophisticated coin flips to settle
Not sure what that means. Complex negotiations involve trade offs and no one actually doing them would claim they were decided by a "coin flip".
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"Your stated opinion is subjective because that is what opinions are." Your opinion, I believe.
On complex negotiations, buying and selling a power plant is a very complex process. The negotiators often encode all their variables, positions, etc. in a simulated purchase agreement. (have a relative who does this). One would be surprised how many of these revolve around just 1 or 2 impasses being settled. Even after a number of iterations. So sometimes they either flip a coin (not literally) and/or trade (compromise if you like) to close the deal.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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Axiom
noun
1. a self-evident truth that requires no proof.
2. a universally accepted principle or rule.
3. Logic, Mathematics. a proposition that is assumed without proof for the sake of studying the consequences that follow from it.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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I downloaded Erasmus story. I heard a variation many moons ago. Seems to be about the same. I love logic twists. And yes, juggling is a there, but it's the meta position that's sees the juggling. Beware the meta juggler.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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"You may of course pull up some objective, undisputable facts. Then you apply these facts in your argumentation, in very subjective ways."
How else can make one's case?
Objective, indisputable facts is the fuel to settle an argument. Application is not subjective. It is required.
True, settling an argument can also become "might makes right". But we all know that's the evil side.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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+1 here 
Mircea
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Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
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honey the codewitch wrote: Motive. Motive. Motive.
During the Apollo missions we came together as a country to compete against the Russians. The motive to fake that wasn't worth the expense of faking it.
Now, we're being torn apart from the inside as some very corrupt people are trying to grow the government and remove every last ounce of freedom we don't have anymore. The motive to destroy this republic is worth faking a ton of crap.
The US is turning into a 3rd world right before our very eyes, and for the same reason it always happens, a corrupt few at the top are seeking unrivaled power at the expense of the public.
But, the average person doesn't need to worry about any of this, they have Netflix and a new food pyramid that includes sugary cereals.
Jeremy Falcon
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I agree with all of this. I'm just saying when there's finger pointing about conspiracies there's typically not enough questioning of the motives behind it. And yet that's an effective tool for determining whether it's even worth looking into.
I'm not about blind trust, I'm about ruling out the highly improbable before it buries me such that I can never find the truth.
Garry Kasparov said that the point of modern propaganda isn't only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.
He was on point. You have to weed and filter before you can hope to come across something.
Everyone on the Internet can make up a story, and if you chase all those stories you'll never know the truth of things.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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honey the codewitch wrote: I'm not about blind trust, I'm about ruling out the highly improbable before it buries me such that I can never find the truth.
Totally agree. A lot of conspiracies are just small-minded folks wanting to feel important, like they're the special ones that figured something out. My last chat with flat Earthers (which scarred me for life  ) is a great example of people strongly believing in something despite the fact they never one had a critical thought on the subject or dare I say pick up a book on it.
It's not just conspiracies though. That's just human nature with an average mind. Well maybe below average. I've had the same exact types of chats regarding crypto before the burst. I knew better. I knew which projects would fail. I knew the burst was coming. But, I still lost money because the clueless people that emotionally believe something with zero knowledge on the subject can be so convincing. And they far, far outnumber those who think. Turns out I was right and still lost money. Go figure.
Jeremy Falcon
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Ya know, flying elephant turds are considered a delicacy in some countries. 
Jeremy Falcon
modified 13-Feb-23 15:23pm.
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What's more plausible... aliens with advance tech that were somehow able to be suppressed by us low tech human n00bs or the government creating yet another story to fool the sheeple with into giving up more freedoms?
And why is it... in the days of 8K video and satellite lenses that can see windshield wipers... every shot of these things are poor quality. I wonder why.
Jeremy Falcon
modified 13-Feb-23 15:09pm.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: What's more plausible... aliens with advance tech that were somehow able to be suppressed by us low tech human n00bs or the government creating yet another story to fool the sheeple with into giving up more freedoms?
Err...neither.
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Don't reply to me dude. Seriously.
Jeremy Falcon
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OK?
Oh wait that is a reply right?
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BillWoodruff wrote: by the ways we, homo saps, are destroying each other, and the planet.
Well, it is our planet.
Not like we signed some interplaneterial agreement to keep it tidy or such..?
..but more likely, some governments shooting down "enemy" satellites.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Using balloons for surveillance and warfare is an old science.
Not alien at all.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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Professor Brian Cox[^] put it best today:
Quote: I've always suspected that an advanced alien civilisation with the technology to travel at close to light speed across interstellar distances would arrive in Earth orbit unobserved and proceed to dispatch a fleet of small, easily detectable balloons into our atmosphere.
Yep, that’s it. Must be aliens!
Mircea
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