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Yep, Joel on Software strikes again.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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Spot on ! I had that chance to play it once and I did not miss it !
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You missed a golden opportunity to be master of the domain. Workplaces like that are in need of someone to lead them out of the dark ages - and that someone inevitably gets paid more.
------------------------------------------------
If you say that getting the money
is the most important thing
You will spend your life
completely wasting your time
You will be doing things
you don't like doing
In order to go on living
That is, to go on doing things
you don't like doing
Which is stupid.
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MMh ... no. Been there tried that. You land in the middle of people who simply do not understand or do not want or whatever, and you end up being the one who does everything because he knows how to while others get promoted. Forget about it.
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yeah, I also have "been there, done that" - several times - and I can confidently say that whilst it's not an easy trick to pull off, steering a company's tech base from the shadows can be really rewarding (:
------------------------------------------------
If you say that getting the money
is the most important thing
You will spend your life
completely wasting your time
You will be doing things
you don't like doing
In order to go on living
That is, to go on doing things
you don't like doing
Which is stupid.
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Exactly right, THEY need to understand they have a problem they need to fix before someone with the knowledge and skills (and mandate) can go fix it. Otherwise it is lose lose. You can't teach a pig to sing, first you'll be unsuccessful, second, it will just irritate the pig. 
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Yes: the interview should always be you interviewing them, not them interviewing you!
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Rage wrote: "Yes, a few, thanks for asking. What tool are you using for source control ?"
"Source what ?"
Basically same thing happened to me. They did say however that they were thinking about doing that pretty soon. I didn't get the impression that they thought it was a priority.
I heard about another place which had source control. For every release a developer would build it locally then zip the binaries and check that zip file into source control. Yep - only thing in source control was the binary builds of the release.
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Absolutely. I don't interview for work anymore - I can't because panic attacks tend to overshadow any potential strengths I can bring to the table as a prospective worker, but I used to do quite well at it before my anxiety trouble.
So with that caveat, when I used to interview, I learned sometime around 2005? or so not to "dress up" for interviews.
Part of it is when I look like me, let's just say I get noticed a lot, for better or worse. I'm apparently "different"
But I can play "normal" on TV. I can dress in business formal and hide most of my eccentricities for an hour.
But then I'm stuck with the guy who is my supervisor who couldn't deal with me as I am, because I left him the wrong impression of who *I* am.
Now, I knew this guy would probably take issue with me - I worked that out at the interview. I'm genderweird, and I know how that impacts some people. I wasn't born in space.
But I wanted to work for the company, so I didn't punt it. I went ahead and aced it.
That was a big mistake. Huge. I've never been in an environment where someone's personal hangups so overshadowed their ability to work with someone different than they are.
I was escorted out of that job. That's how much he didn't like me. After he got the project he hired me for.
Never again. It's not worth it.
If I get a bad initial read on someone I'm going to work with, I walk away. The interview (such as there is one) is the place for that.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
modified 2-Nov-22 13:51pm.
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But you got the last laugh as he wasn't able to complete the project without your skills, right?
I’ve given up trying to be calm. However, I am open to feeling slightly less agitated.
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I don't know or care. As soon as I left I was on to bigger and better things, lesson learned. 
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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I never had very many job interviews. Maybe 3-4. At the time, they were mostly a formality to make sure you were the real deal on your resume. I had the interview because I had the job. That was sort of how it worked back them. Programming was such a new field, interviewers were usually other programmers. Your resume was the "hire me" product, so we spent a lot of time on those.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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honey the codewitch wrote: or so not to "dress up" for interviews.
This is golden advice that I learn myself. I am not that weird - I'm a bog standard metalhead in his 30s that no longer wears band sweaters because the last ones he bought no longer fit (I swear these new fabrics tighten with time).
That said, I don't wear suits or ties and it shows. When I wear one it is painfully obvious that I'm not used to that dress code, and that since I'm paid like an engineer in my country (little more than a manula laborer) I have to wear mass produced suits, which exacerbate the "man who stole some clothes from the garbage can" impression.
I also learnt to not hold back my true character too much: I am direct, inquisitive and I do have my needs, wants and lacks. Let's be honest from Time0 since if it goes well we'll be working together for way too much time, if it doesn't it doesn't and that's it.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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den2k88 wrote: That said, I don't wear suits or ties and it shows. When I wear one it is painfully obvious that I'm not used to that dress code,
'business casual' - I add 20,000 to my ask. But places like that usually have additional adds so I price myself out.
'suit' - I would add 60,000 but been a really long time since I thought that was a possibility.
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Yep, workplace tour. Back in early 90s, a nationally-known company within walking distance of my home were looking for senior devs, and my tech qualifications fitted the bill perfectly. Went for interview, job sounded great, offices (the bit I saw) looked great, remuneration excellent. All seemed to be on track, so the team leader took me for a tour to show me where I'd be working. Walked into the department to see 1 desk at the front facing an array of about 25 desks facing the other way, just like a school classroom. 25 coders, all head-down, didn't look up when we walked in. Looked like a measured 1metre between desks, just like in an exam room. Never seen anything like it.
Ironically I got a contract there a few years later, (when it was a normal office) and was still supplying contract support to the project some 10 years after that, all the permie staff having left.
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I once interviewed for a company whose headquarters were in Buffalo NY but they had a satellite office in Albany. The commute to Albany would be about an hour but I was definitely needing work at that time.
So, they told me they wouldn't do a Zoom interview, I had to come in to the office at Albany. OK, I can do that.
In the Albany office, I was led into a conference room where the freaking interview was conducted over Zoom with me being the only person in the conference room.
F***ing morons. I was so pissed off that I tried my new line on them. When asked "what is an abstract class" I told them, "please don't ask me junior programming questions and that anyone can Google the answer for."
The silence was stunning and deeply satisfying. 
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Good answer Marc 
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming “Wow! What a Ride!" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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One upping here - I traveled 50+ k to an interview where the interviewer did not turn up, he called in sick, there was no alternative so I left. I then sent them an invoice for 3 hours work - and they paid it. I declined the second request for an interview.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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That's how to handle it!
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I once got asked how I'd reverse a string. "String.Reverse, of course."
Well, what if you were working in an environment that didn't have that? "I'd start looking for a new platform."
Then went through the algorithm. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Got called back later that morning by the headhunter saying, "They loved you! Can you come back this afternoon for a follow-up interview?"
At the same time as above, had an interview with another organization. Get there, nobody's out by the reception area. Wandered down the hall, found someone and explained I was here for an interview.
While waiting back in the reception area, saw a bookshelf filled with self-help management titles. My initial thought was, "these guys don't know what they're doing, and are grasping at straws."
Turns out, I was right. Unfortunately for me, I thought position #2 would be a better use of my skills from the standpoint of being more socially responsible, and took it. Oops.
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When I was getting out of the Air Force I interviewed at a lot of places. I went back to the recruiter after interviewing at MCI and told them not to send anyone else there. MCI had zero clue what they needed and some of the staff looked like they should be on the street looking for tricks. I wasn't surprised when MCI folded a couple of years later.
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Ideally a work interview is for you to assess them as well!
I always thought I should try to find out about their workplace during job interview. Never found out anything unfortunately, though all my workplaces were fine, so I guess there is that!
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Even Worse I once received a letter all but promising a position and requesting an interview. I took a day off of my then job and traveled and stayed at motel. Upon interview the fellow made it clear he had no interest in hiring me and even induced me to somehow conclude I was not a good fit. What a push-over I was. Afterward I regretted not pouring the pitcher of water which was on the desk over his head. It appears my cousins' prediction was correct when he stated the purpose of the letter was merely to fill the interviewers' quota.
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Yes, that happened to me.
On the other hand, sometimes I quickly realized they didn't consider me a good fit for the job.
"In testa che avete, Signor di Ceprano?"
-- Rigoletto
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Some time ago I interviewed at a small company. Walking back to the boss's office, I figured out I didn't want to work there.
Everyone was wearing a dress shirt, pants, and a tie  .
Nobody was talking to each other in an open floor plan office.
No personal items on the desks.
The boss was retired military. He wanted me to be his "V.P. of Engineering", which meant I would run the office while he traveled and schmoozed looking for government contracts. For this he was offering 5K less than I was making at the time, the salary was non-negotiable, and I was expected to be on-call 24/7.
No ![Elephant | [mastadon]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/elephant.gif) ing thank you.
Software Zen: delete this;
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