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Chris is "Chris-Maunder" not "chrismaunder" - you can find the atcode on the members home page as it doesn't necessarily match the username.
I know what you mean with Alex - he really doesn't seem to be learning much, if anything. And if he is, it's more by luck than judgement! 
I think it's because he thinks there is a "short cut" to be a good developer, and if he hammers at it often enough the magical ability will descend upon him as if from on high - but he's not alone in that, I have a friend who has lived in London for 40 years and still can't cope with parallel parking (to the point where she just stops and gets the driver behind to do it for her).
But I don't feel that is anything we can really do something about - we have tried education, suggesting books and courses, pretty much everything short of calling him an idiot.
I would agree that he is learning the wrong lessons, and for his own personal growth he should stop and take stock of what he is doing, but there seems little chance of that until he decides he's "good enough" and proceeds to fail a dozen job interviews because he doesn't understand what he is doing, just how to solve a specific problem (generally pretty badly).
"You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" applies here, but I have no idea what we could or should do that we aren't. Banning or otherwise punishing him doesn't seem appropriate to me really...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
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@Chris-Maunder
I always appreciate your thoughts, and reactions !
I interpret your comments to imply you agree with my hypothesis that this poster is not learning.
But, i disagree with what i perceive as your conclusion that "we" can't do anything about this pattern of behavior ... which i think is inappropriate for this forum ... in fact, inappropriate for any forum, here.
i also think that multiple down-votes on his questions is ... while perhaps a backdoor way to get rid of him and/or his questions ... is not constructive. In fact, imho, by tolerating this pattern we are reinforcing the poster's dependency, and unrealistic sense of entitlement.
Also, i think the value of the forum as a whole is degraded by tolerating such a pattern. Should all forum users have more relevant questions "submerged" by the spate of this poster's meandering ?
cheers, Bill
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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Bill, While I do agree with what you are saying, I do not think that banning him would actually achieve anything useful, either for him or the forums. There are plenty like him who come here (and probably the other forums) thinking that development means cut and paste from Google, and get the experts to fix any errors. But we live in the (sometimes forlorn) hope that at least some of these people will actually follow our suggestions, and go and learn from the ground up.
ps. always good to read your comments and ideas.
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Hi, Richard,
While i do think "stopping the pattern" would be "good" for the forum, i actually had not thought of "banning" this poster.
i am thinking of direct confrontation: of multiple members telling said poster that they are not "working smart," now; and, showing him how to engage in learning, in using on-line resources, to find the often simple answers to his questions.
"Tough love," that says "you can learn, and, here's how;" not the passive (on our part) punishment of having posts removed by multiple anonymous down-votes. Shifting the focus from providing to enabling.
On the C# QA forum i'm not shy about confrontation: [^] ...
but, on the C# language forum ... when i see you and Pete and Griff, and others i respect, taking your time to give patient answers ...
i am hesitant; that hesitancy is, i guess, my motive for raising this issue ... here.
cheers, Bill
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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I'm not sure what you would like to see happen here. Apart from all newcomers suddenly being imbued with a magical ability to understand what they don't know in order to form perfectly sensible and minimal questions focused on their problem while providing full context. And World Peace and stuff, too.
At least he's providing complete questions. Maybe he's trolling - but if he he it's the most gentle, patient and odd trolling ever. Maybe he's genuinely trying to learn. Maybe he's after answers and learns from direct answers rather than engaging in Microsoft Docs Archeology.
If he's bothering you, leave him alone and maybe he'll go away. If he has questions you have the time and energy to answer then know that your answers will be used by others who stumble upon the same question. But coming down hard on someone asking questions? Nah. Doesn't feel appropriate here.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote: I'm not sure what you would like to see happen here. Apart from all newcomers suddenly being imbued with a magical ability to understand what they don't know in order to form perfectly sensible and minimal questions focused on their problem while providing full context. And World Peace and stuff, too.
Your use of rhetorical exaggeration here suggests you do not take my concerns seriously.
Chris Maunder wrote: But coming down hard on someone asking questions? Nah. Doesn't feel appropriate here.
This is an unwarranted extrapolation from my words that "paints them" in the most possible negative light.
If you really don't care if the C# language forum is turned into an anything goes heavy-metal concert mosh-pit  ... why have the forum ? Others on the QA forums get confronted ... or, voted-away very quickly for this poster's type of behavior via the anonymous down-vote booby-hatch.
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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Actually I take the issue very seriously, but I take it seriously from the point of view of thinking about newcomers to the language and how hard it is for them to even know what they don't know. You mentioned in another post that you had been teaching C++ and C# devs for quite some time, and so I think you and I should have a chat offline about this topic. It's close to my heart (and this will become apparent soon)
My point wasn't to dismiss your concerns at all. My point is that sometimes it's hard for people to ask the right questions. It is, in my mind, the hardest thing for a new developer, and probably the hardest thing to actually teach a developer. My hyperbole was to illustrate the difficulty.
BillWoodruff wrote: This is an unwarranted extrapolation
Is it? Then I misunderstood the purpose of this thread. I honestly thought you were asking the collective to ban this poster.
BillWoodruff wrote: why have the forum
To allow back and forth discussions and discovery, rather than the wham, bam, thank you Ma'am "ask your question perfectly and we'll give you a single perfect answer" style of Q&A.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Why are you thinking I'm wasting my time? People here have helped me a lot. I find some of my questions in Microsoft documentation, some of them in Stackoverflow and some others in YouTube. I use DevExpress and I cannot ask them any questions because their forum doesn't support my country.
I say again, I'm not a troller and I just want to learn what I don't know. So, please help me and don't think that I'm an idiot. I learn based on real projects. And please don't think that I have low IQ.
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@Chris-Maunder @originalgriff
Hi, Alex,Alex Dunlop wrote: Why are you thinking I'm wasting my time?
I didn't specifically say you were wasting your time, although I consider that very likely..
"troller ... idiot ... low IQ:" I do not, cannot, judge your personal character, or intelligence ... how could I ?
I see a pattern of behavior in your floods of posts, most of which you could easily answer by just reading the on-line docs, or by searching CP and/or StackOverFlow.
As a long-time teacher of C# and .NET to students at a variety of levels, I conclude you have not, are not, doing any serious studying; instead you are jumping around without direction or purpose.
Whether this is because you are a clever leech, or lazy, or just someone who has difficulty learning: I don't know. But, I am sure the real world will not show you the tolerance you have found here ... if you ever try to get a job as a programmer.
What bothers me is seeing a forum supposedly meant for language related discussions turned into a nursery for you.
Not the truth:Alex Dunlop wrote: I use DevExpress and I cannot ask them any questions because their forum doesn't support my country.
Your profile shows you are in the US; DevExpress support will help anyone, anywhere in the world, who has licensed their software.
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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Hi,
I'm trying hard to learn and have had some successes yet. I'm working on a reporting project. Sometimes I need help to solve my problems during the developing process. I use YouTube, StackOverFlow, Codeproject, Google, etc. and finally find my answer and learn the points. Microsoft documentation is great for learning but there are moments you need to get help from others about how and with what tools you can solve your problem. And this website has helped me a lot. Now, At the same time, I'm learning ASP.NET using YouTube tutorials. I can achieve my goals. One day, I will be a good programmer. I promise. 
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There's your problem. Youtube is the worst place to try and learn from if you're inexperienced. You have no point of reference for deciding how good they are and there's no grading system for determining how good they are.
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Hi Alex,
"Trying hard" is good ... but, imho, in programming: you need to build on a foundation of fundamental knowledge about the language, the context (framework) in which the language is embedded, and the development environment (IDE).
Two other major skills i consider critical are: the ability and skill to locate and use resources, and, the art and craft of debugging. Also important, imho, is experimenting writing code that uses what you are learning, prototyping ... making the abstract tangible is, imho, what helps create long-term memories of action+concepts ... what I call pragma.
When you even partially master that foundation, even partially acquire those skills, then, when you try hard, the effort is not likely to be wasted.
imho, studying examples of good code that solves problems is part of the continuing education programmers need to engage in to keep their skills sharp, and updated. CodeProject and StackOverFlow are full of good code examples.
I think there is no substitute for spending time studying a good book on C#; i'll be happy to recommend a few. For me, video is not so helpful (age ? eyes ?), but, some of my students have really profited from video courses from sites like PluralSight, Udemy.
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
modified 15-Aug-21 4:34am.
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|Mr Keyboard is busy: Member 15322591 - Professional Profile[^]
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
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Slots: Member 15322563 - Professional Profile[^]
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
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Reopening a 2012 question to post a link to a paid product: sonia thapa 2021 - Professional Profile[^]
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
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