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Good old Gordon Brown, who sold a pile of Her Majesty's gold on a bottom tick.
Your refugee take is interesting, but economic growth would be far less important without all the unfunded pension liabilities. I think that's more of a driving force. But so far it isn't working, because many refugees have low-paying jobs, or none.
Doomsayers keep channeling Malthus, but nothing so far. Maybe one day. Or maybe humankind will eventually be expanding at the speed of light. 
Gold since the end of Bretton Woods in 1971 (USD 42/oz) is a good starting point, for a CAGR of 7.8% since the printing presses really got cranked up. And in 1967, when Canada last minted silver coins, 10 cents bought a liter of gasoline. It still does, despite far greedier tax collectors.
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Greg Utas wrote: Good old Gordon Brown, who sold a pile of Her Majesty's gold on a bottom tick.
And gave more trust in our fiat, causing our economy to bloom. It's not that black and white, there's just pro's and con's.
Greg Utas wrote: economic growth would be far less important without all the unfunded pension liabilities. I think that's more of a driving force. But so far it isn't working, because many refugees have low-paying jobs, or none.
It is the only important factor, and it don't matter if they contribute. What matters is debt, and consumption. The hallmarks of the US economy.
"And nothing else matters, ejeeejej!"
Greg Utas wrote: Gold since the end of Bretton Woods in 1971 (USD 42/oz) is a good starting point
For what? As a silverbug, we cannot go back. There's not enough to go around, simple as that. If economy fails, the price of gold and silver will fall also!
Greg Utas wrote: It still does, despite far greedier tax collectors.
American? You been promised "no more taxes" during every presidential campaign in the last 30 or so years.
Taxes is what makes Europe better than the US. In every way. Feel free to move, there's some nations in Africa where you hardly pay anything 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Taxes is what makes Europe better than the US. In every way.
I finally figured out the very weird perspective and twists you have on things!
Your real name is "Candide".
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Your real name is "Candide".
Who?
Google is not helpfull again.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Isn't that 'historic' view what got us into this mess?
It's like the (upcoming) economics of a habitable climate..
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Not sure what you're getting at. I could quibble with the quotes, but both are essentially correct.
Economics tries to explain things like how scarce resources are allocated and how prices are determined, so the economics of a habitable climate would be no different than any other.
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Hi Greg,
I wasn't sure if you were thinking of money as a commodity item, which was then suitable for use as an exchangeable token for value (like those longing for a return to 'gold standard' and everything else as 'fake' money).
The shift to digital accounting has made the majority of physical commodity money obsolete, but the problem of maintaining 'trust' in the money (as value) is still there (as per the bitcoin game). The core element is that the money (digital or otherwise) is (has smallest unit elements) that are smaller than the value of the items traded (pennies and cents). So we can slice and dice our trading in the capitalist economy.
However Climate isn't traded that way, and is more 'socialist/communist' (community) than capitalistic, so can't actually be valued as a trade, so the 'money' (fiat or commodity) approach starts to fade.
The scarce resource of habitable climate can't be allocated using the old mechanisms, hence my thought about 'upcoming economics'. Which is all a bit of a way from the current children's bitcoin game..
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Digital accounting has made it unnecessary to routinely exchange commodity money, but that doesn't mean that currency units shouldn't be backed by a commodity. Without this, history shows that the privilege to conjure currency units will be abused. It's a tax, but one that is easier to collect because most people don't even realize that they're being diluted if it's done at a modest rate of, say, 2% in excess of economic growth per year.
Climate can be traded, which is what carbon credits and taxes are about. Whether these are good solutions is debatable. But pollution can (or should) be prosecuted as a tort, in which case the cost of polluting can be factored into economic decisions.
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There is no need of a single commodity to base a currency on (i.e. none is a sufficient base). The market dynamics aggregate across all the commodities being traded to decide the exchange rate between currencies.
The costs of goods fluctuate all the time for many reasons. We enjoy the illusion of certain stabilities - e.g. "The pound in your pocket" unaffected by the devaluation of sterling (Wilson, 1967).
For some currencies there is also government interaction for 'common' federal money (e.g. European union, and other Unions).
Conceptual elements of climate can be traded, but habitability isn't decided by the parties to the trade, hence the problem.
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The "pros" are just playing the part of Barnum and Bailey; riding the wave of suckers that don't have the means to survive the volatility. No smarts required; just cash (the old stuff).
The "pros" are swimming in cash (and real-time data); that's why they're in the game. It's the "fool and his money" angle they're playing.
Blinded by the light.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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Pretty much right on the mark.
Another perspective to add to your list - think of it for what it is: gambling.
If you get involved in gambling with someone and the odds of either of you winning is 50%, the one of you with the most money has the better chance of winning. That's because there are streaks of wins and losses. Eventually one streak will be long enough to wipe out one of the players and that's more like as the difference in assets increases.
In a way, it's a complimentary description to your "surviving the volatility".
Another offshoot of your reply, two components that are relatable (Barnum and "fool and his money") - which a famous quote usually attributed to P.T. Barnum: "There's a sucker born every minute".
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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This is actually a very good description of hyperinflation. When it occurred it Weimar Germany, the central bankers lamented that they couldn't print money fast enough! That was true, though it was their prior printing that caused the crisis. When confidence in a currency is lost, velocity goes to the moon because everyone spends their currency immediately, for anything of value, because prices will be higher tomorrow...tonight...a couple of hours from now.
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I was first vaguely aware of this as a child - my stamp collection had an unused stamp. It was overprinted (not worth new paper, I suppose) as 100 Million Reichsmarks. Excitement waned as I discovered how much it was not worth.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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100 million? Meh[^].
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I wouldn't give one ningy for your quatloos.
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First of all apologies to the purists; the sub-continent of India; and much of Asia, but....
Curry & Chips has to be the perfect East/West culinary marriage. 
Particularly, keeping back two or three chips to mop up the last bit of curry sauce and grains of salt. Obviously salt on curry is an absolute no-no, but it's essential for chips.
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ah curry with deep-fried aloo
the best
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There are times when it is exactly the right food. Particularly "Chinese takeaway curry" and chips.
And the same for the doner kebab, the deep fried Mars Bar (allegedly, never tried), the Chicken Parmo (ditto) ...
And they all share one thing in common: you have to be pretty drunk to appreciate them fully!
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Chinese curry is the mutts - haven't had it since the last time I got pissed for years
"I didn't mention the bats - he'd see them soon enough" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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I've seen "kebab" used to describe both meat on a rotisserie (Schawarma) and little meat patties grilled on a BBQ. Both can be good, when fresh. It's the stuff that has been cooking for hours (i.e. buying a kebab after the pubs' closing time) that you have to avoid.
If you do have an irresistible urge to eat a kebab at those hours, the drink might actually help kill some of the accumulated bacteria in the meat. 
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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The elephants leg in the window
"I didn't mention the bats - he'd see them soon enough" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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pkfox wrote: The very tasty elephants leg in the window
With very hot chilli sauce and coleslaw ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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OriginalGriff wrote: With very hot chilli sauce and coleslaw
This is the way.
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Chips? Like Lays, the crips?
No, you meant French Fries, and those are horrible. Try Belgian, the Dutch way (meaning, with mayo, or kapsalon).
"Chips" is either a thin potato waffle or something inside the PC. And "Fish and Chips" is something, well, blasphemous.
As for your observation on sauces going well with fries.. well, some countries been pairing them for quite a while.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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