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I did research it. The common explanations always deteriorate into hand-waving.
Software Zen: delete this;
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The first is limited in supply, the other is more like fiat and costs nothing to produce.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: The first is limited in supply
Who is limiting the supply of Bitcoins?
Eddy Vluggen wrote: the other is more like fiat and costs nothing to produce
Arcade Tokens definitely cost 'something' to produce. It may not be much, but it's probably more than the cost of producing a Bitcoin. So an Arcade Token does have an intrinsic value - whereas a Bitcoin's value is artificial, resulting completely from how it is managed/marketed.
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5teveH wrote: Who is limiting the supply of Bitcoins?
Math. Just so you know where to complain 
5teveH wrote: Arcade Tokens definitely cost 'something' to produce. It may not be much, but it's probably more than the cost of producing a Bitcoin
You're measurably wrong. BC's cost a lot of energy to mine; most of us can't afford that.
5teveH wrote: So an Arcade Token does have an intrinsic value
Very little, since plastic is cheap. BC has an intrinsic value since it has a use for us (that's the basis of intrinsic value, how much uses do we have and what demand does that generate?)
BC's "intrinsic" value is rising, because supply is limited and demand rising.
5teveH wrote: whereas a Bitcoin's value is artificial, resulting completely from how it is managed/marketed.
You may want to pick up a few books explaining basic economics. Also, there's no company that "owns" BC, so there's no budget for marketing.
But go ahead, explain me how the way the ECB manages "money" is superiour to decentralized non-managing based on math.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: like fiat and costs nothing to produce.
Unfortunately, if you check into bitcoin mining, the cost of production is a lot of electricity (and concomitant pollution).
My perspective: the cost of production is high and produces nothing.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Unfortunately, if you check into bitcoin mining, the cost of production is a lot of electricity (and concomitant pollution).
So, we can only spend (solar, wind) energy on stuff that helps us as humanity? ..and how are you so certain that it is not worth the pollution to have a "safe storage of value" (which fiat isn't, and is part of the definition of money!)
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: My perspective: the cost of production is high and produces nothing.
Lots of followers of Keynes here, but they all drop their faith in the man when it comes to BC Even fake money works as money, proven by history - the difference being that BC isn't fiat and doesn't require "belief", nor "trust".
Just to be clear; I don't own BC, don't say anyone should or should not, just reasoning from theory. I'm a silverbug. I don't care whether BC becomes a success or not. Just pointing out that it already is.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: So, we can only spend (solar, wind) energy on stuff that helps us as humanity?
What makes you think the majority of bitcoin mining is via solar/wind? Look it up![^] Wait - I'll save you a click:Quote: Bitcoin produces 36.95 megatons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually (comparable to New Zealand) and it is estimated that in 30 years Bitcoin could alone increase global temperatures 2 degrees Celsius. About 65 percent of cryptocurrency mining occurs in China, where electricity is cheaper.Mar 26, 2021
Eddy Vluggen wrote: BC isn't fiat and doesn't require "belief", nor "trust".
Perhaps you don't understand what "belief" means - because that's all it has - belief that it will increase in value.*Eddy Vluggen wrote: Even fake money works as money, proven by history
I suggest you get a few extra ink or toner cartridges and make some history, yourself! Let me know how it works out . . .
* Temporarily ignoring it's use for extortion and general criminal activities, making them less burdensome for the criminals.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: What makes you think the majority of bitcoin mining is via solar/wind?
I did not claim that, did I? But yes, I got solar panels last month, and saves me a few bucks. And not unthinkable that someone else is using that to "mine".
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Perhaps you don't understand what "belief" means
As a former Catholic, anything I cannot measure or verify, or any experiment that is not repeatable, is an uncertainty. Anything beyond, is belief. Anything measured is also not valid as proof, but only as good as the measurement, meaning there'll be a margin of error.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: belief that it will increase in value.*
Now you confusing hype with value; yes, there's a hype, and yes, people buying it because it goes up. As a silverbug I can tell you that you don't buy on the way up, but on the way down. Regardless of that speculation (gambling), it has value as a limited verifyable trade-token, like the wooden sticks with carvings we once used. Makes the wood it's carved in more valuable, but like BC, no "intrinsic" value, no real commodity, just a trading token.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: I suggest you get a few extra ink or toner cartridges and make some history, yourself! Let me know how it works out . . .
Won't be much demand for fiat you give out, since you backing it. That doesn't hold for nations, see "Rentenmark".
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: making them less burdensome for the criminals.
The most used currency in criminal circuits is the US$. Because they easy to trade. Easier than BC, gold and diamonds.
So, the man buying a pizza for 10.000 BC's was a criminal? Explain to this silverbug; (and I am dating a criminal), why would she favor BC over cash US$?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Thread expanding too much - I'll just hit a couple or so:Eddy Vluggen wrote: I did not claim that, did I? But yes, I got solar panels last month, and saves me a few bucks. And not unthinkable that someone else is using that to "mine".
Bringing that into the conversation implied it was a relevant component of fuel the bitmining. it's not. Some cases, here, and there, but mostly set up where power is cheapest.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: As a silverbug I can tell you that you don't buy on the way up, but on the way down. Regardless of that speculation (gambling), it has value as a limited verifyable trade-token, like the wooden sticks with carvings we once used. Makes the wood it's carved in more valuable, but like BC, no "intrinsic" value, no real commodity, just a trading token.
My first market trading was commodity options, not stocks and bonds. Mostly silver and gold. A bit of oil. I first heard the term silverbug in that context. But the majority of your implications are a mess: silver isn't just a token - it's a useful commodity. Particularly in the days of 'real photography' but as a self-proclaimed "silverbug" you should have some understanding of what it is you are dealing with[^]. Perhaps you do, but you surely don't sound like it. Silver has real value because it is used for things.Eddy Vluggen wrote: The most used currency in criminal circuits is the US$. Because they easy to trade. Easier than BC, gold and diamonds.
A silly distraction of a statement. When your data's held hostages, what do the sleaze want to be paid with? And the online drug trade loves it to. And people who don't want to pay taxes to support pay for the infrastructure they exploit.
So why would a criminal prefer BC to cash. The obvious point that you are well aware of: it cannot be traced. Hoards of wealth, if in real currency, is documented (unless you stuff your mattress). It's a way to figure out who's involved with illegal traffic - how does an unemployed surfer afford a Maserati ? The entire money laundering industry is to get rid of half the problem: where did that money come from. It may be taxed but they keep most of their loot. You don't need to launder bitcoin. It eases the way for crime across all borders - and think of the lovely foreign despots who can loot their country's treasuries and send it out of the country so much more easily.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Thread expanding too much
And I'm at my limit anyway; this state is half awake and half dreaming, and gets me in trouble. I *need* to complete the post though.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Bringing that into the conversation implied it was a relevant component of fuel the bitmining. it's not. Some cases, here, and there, but mostly set up where power is cheapest.
Fuel cost is relevant, as you admitted. Mining costs resources.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: My first market trading was commodity options, not stocks and bonds. Mostly silver and gold. A bit of oil. I first heard the term silverbug in that context. But the majority of your implications are a mess: silver isn't just a token - it's a useful commodity.
Yes! It is a thing like wood would be, and *that* is what makes it money! It is just lighter and easier to divide than wood would be. Gold, moreso than silver.
That is what makes it money; utilization. And the more uses we have for it, the higher the demand.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Perhaps you do, but you surely don't sound like it. Silver has real value because it is used for things.
Just some 50 years of experience, stats, and even before it had that "real use"; if translated, "silver" and "money" in some languages the same. You're comparing wood with the tally stick
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: When your data's held hostages, what do the sleaze want to be paid with?
Because most crime is data held hostage ofc. No, most crime is paid for in US$. Because most of the world accepts those without question.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: It's a way to figure out who's involved with illegal traffic - how does an unemployed surfer afford a Maserati ?
He's a mechanic, bought a wreck and restored it.
Who are you as a government to question and track that? THAT is why I pay in silver. No records, no questions. And with my government giving the example, I shall follow their lead.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: where did that money come from
Yes; the bank asked me that question when I wanted to withdraw part of my savings. The answer was whoring and drugs. And living in a country where that's allowed..
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: You don't need to launder bitcoin. It eases the way for crime across all borders
US$ are hardly "laundered", except on TV. There's a whole market using black/grey money. If people were to switch to BC for laundering then the US$ would definitely tank and drop.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: It eases the way for crime across all borders
Yeah, we didn't have that much crime before BC, did we?
The US just killed Khadaffi for fun, not for currencies sake, ehr? One of the African countries where learning was free.
Again, not a supporter of BC, nor any investment there. I wouldn't care either way, as math says I cannot loose as a silverbug.
As for my "criminal" date; she accepts mostly Euros, or Dollars, but nothing else, because everything else involves currency-risc, makes unstable pricing, isn't reliable.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Before their were bitcoins there were tire dump fires. The latter were replaced due to not being ecologically destructive enough vs the amount of energy wasted via Proof of Pollution based mining.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
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Nice, He has a good voice.
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Might be good to mention that the second song is from a game soundtrack and Old Gods of Asgard is the in-game alter ego of Poets of the Fall.
Without that nugget of information it's just two bands making different music
That said, neither will make it to SOTW 
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The first I heard from them was:
Poets of the Fall - Carnival of Rust (Official Video w/ Lyrics) - YouTube[^]
and it still is one of my favourites
(although the videoclip is a bit.... weird)
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Is Velcro just a rip-off?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Yeah obviously you cant just zip it!
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
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Watch out for velcro. You can get hooked on that stuff.
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I wouldn't place a button that.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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That one threw me for a loop!
If you can't laugh at yourself - ask me and I will do it for you.
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So I'm working on an Azure app and one thing I do (and have done for 11 years now) is use DateTime.Now, which gives me the current system date and time.
Never been an issue with WinForms apps or locally hosted apps.
It's even never been an issue in web apps where I've used it for logging and the like.
I've had to use specific time zones before, but always the user's client time zone.
In this particular case, I need to save the system/company date and time and also report this back to the user.
Azure uses UTC and I'm in The Netherlands though, so the time is always off by one or two hours (depending on summer or winter).
The fix, apparently, is this:
var timeZone = TimeZoneInfo.FindSystemTimeZoneById("W. Europe Standard Time");
var now = TimeZoneInfo.ConvertTime(DateTime.UtcNow, timeZone);The "W. Europe Standard Time" is a bit of a magical string that will probably change in a few years when we're abolishing summer time (so make it a setting and don't hard code it!).
You can get a list of these magical strings using tzutil /l (on Windows).
I've always known DateTime.Now isn't really safe or anything, it's just never been an issue until now.
DateTime.Today is specific and accurate enough for almost everything I do.
And so I've learned how to get the date and time for a specific timezone after 11 years of programming
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Sander Rossel wrote: after 11 years of programming
Consider yourself lucky not having to deal with timezones until now.
You should store everything in db in UTC and then convert when needed. DateTime.UtcNow
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We've once had someone leave somewhere at (fictional times) 14:30 and arriving at 13:45, he had driven for fifteen minutes, but went into another timezone.
So what do you do?
Correct the departure time for the arrival time zone, correct the arrival time for the departure time zone or show time zone in this user's overview for that one time every few years he takes his car on vacation (this actually happened once for thousands of users using the system for three years)?
I think we went for an asterisk with some text on hover that explained the user crossed a time zone.
Obviously, you need time zone information here.
However, what if a user changed something at home at 11:00 and then flies over to America for vacation, but remembers they should change something else.
Should they see 11:00 for the previous change, or 05:00, as that is their local time now?
If it's 11:00, which would be my preference, you might as well just store 11:00, as it's just always that, 11:00.
It's a lot easier for fetching and filtering the data if times are WYSIWYG...
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I apologize for jumping into your conversation but I had to deal with time issues for some time and I pretend I know a few things (just my illusion, but humor me ).
IMO both examples you give show that using UTC is the best solution. In the first one, if you store UTC times departure and arrival times would have meaningful values. Travel time would also be correct. If you are to make a report when the traveler was away, all times should be converted to observer's time zone. The observer would be the person requesting the report or the company's HQ or whatever.
In the second example you definitely have to enter the time zone the user wants to apply. If in addition to changing the stuff at home he has also to schedule a meeting you wouldn't want him to show up at the meeting using European time zone. Google Calendar takes this approach where each event has an associated time zone.
Quote: It's a lot easier for fetching and filtering the data if times are WYSIWYG...
Changing the filter parameters to UTC beforehand is equally easy.
Mircea
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Mircea Neacsu wrote: if you store UTC times departure and arrival times would have meaningful values. Travel time would also be correct. If you are to make a report when the traveler was away, all times should be converted to observer's time zone. The observer would be the person requesting the report or the company's HQ or whatever.
Disagree on this one.
The user checks his watch, it says 14:30, and starts driving.
Now, back at home, he wonders at what time they left exactly and is surprised to see 13:30, while he's sure it was around 14:30 (so don't adjust to user's current time).
Also, he get's a call from HQ in America who ask him why he left at 06:00 in the morning (again, they probably want to know local time (too), if not to be able to communicate).
UTC means nothing to users, they barely even know it exists.
Mircea Neacsu wrote: In the second example you definitely have to enter the time zone the user wants to apply.
Possibly... If a user changes something today at 13:00 and after that someone else sends an email they saw a bug at 12:00, you want to know the user changed it after the bug was observed to rule out any association.
In this case storing UTC and time zone information can greatly help.
You'd want HQ in America to know it was at 06:00 their time, but have the local users see 13:00.
However, if the user who made the change flies over to America, they'd probably still want to see 13:00 as that's the time they can relate to in their head, 06:00 wouldn't make sense as they were still asleep at that time.
Mircea Neacsu wrote: Changing the filter parameters to UTC beforehand is equally easy.
But wrong if the default filter is "today" and the user opens the page at 00:30 (Dutch time).
Storing UTC and time zone information never hurts, so I agree it's best practice, but whether you actually do something with it depends on each and every individual situation, unfortunately 
In my case, everyone is in the Netherlands, so I could probably get away with always storing Dutch time.
In any case, time zones are an absolute PITA 
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