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jsc42 wrote: Unlikely! It's the same person. Member 14971499.
That was my point !
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Quote: So my question is: What does my degree exactly proving?
Tenacity. It's not a quality kept in high regard these days, but take my word for it, it's badly needed if you are going to practice programming professionally. Do you imagine big software projects are all fun and enjoyment? There is the thrill of finding a nice solution followed by the boredom of having to implement it and writing code for all the corner cases and input checking and so on and so forth (yawn). Reminds me sometimes of what they say about the life of airline pilots: hours of boredom interrupted by moments of shear panic.
Member 14971499 wrote: PS: I know that I will not always prorgam that much at my work and I still have to put up with lazy co-workers and waste time at the meetings
You see: you are alredy getting the hang of it 
As Yoda said: "Patience you must have my young padawan"
Mircea
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Member 14971499 wrote: In one week I can finish 800-pages programming book
If you can understand all of an 800 page programming book about a new subject in a week, start your own company, you're a genius. Like others have said, some job opportunities will simply not be available to you without a degree. Being condescending towards others about their perceived laziness or lack of skill is generally not a trait employers are looking for.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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jeron1 wrote: If you can understand all of an 800 page programming book about a new subject in a week, start your own company, you're a genius.
If you think it makes me a genius, than I suppose you never even opened a programming book in your life. I already went trough many such books and I don't feel like a genius.
jeron1 wrote: Being condescending towards others about their perceived laziness or lack of skill is generally not a trait employers are looking for.
It's not "perceived laziness", it's the real laziness and the real lack of skill. That's why employers have to hire slaves... I mean... "outsource" to Eastern Europe and Asia, so that one indian can do the job of hundres of intern lazy con artists.
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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Good luck.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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Quote: It's not "perceived laziness", it's the real laziness and the real lack of skill.
I can't comment on the individuals concerned as I don't know them, but that is a rather sweeping comment to make. You've already said that there is at least one hard-working student in the group and claim that your class mates already knew how to program before joining the course.
Quote: That's why employers have to hire slaves... I mean... "outsource" to Eastern Europe and Asia, so that one indian can do the job of hundres of intern lazy con artists.
It is unlikely that one person, Indian or otherwise, can do the job of hundreds of Interns. Please stop using the word "slaves" to reference these hard-working outsourcers. It might seem like poor pay to those of us lucky enough to live in wealthy countries, but they are usually relatively highly paid compared to their own community.
Quote: than I suppose you never even opened a programming book in your life.
I'm fairly sure that an Engineer who has been a member here for over 14 years has read a technical book or two in their time!
You're sailing a little close to the wind with some of the comments you are making. This is a site for professionals (actual or budding) so please try to keep your comments civil, non-condescending and non-insulting.
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Well said. 
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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CHill60 wrote: Please stop using the word "slaves" to reference these hard-working outsourcers
I think calling spade for a spade isn't insulting. What really is insulting is that western societies use those people as slaves because someone have to make work of those lazy spoiled millenials from western colleges.
CHill60 wrote: I'm fairly sure that an Engineer who has been a member here for over 14 years has read a technical book or two in their time!
So now I understand why Indians, Asians and Eastern Europeans have to make your job, because they read books
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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You need to lose the chip on your shoulder.
And while you may consider some people slaves, no one takes a job unless they consider it to be the best one available to them. If people have freedom of choice, they're not slaves. I'd counter that many in the West are slaves, but saying more would be getting into topics that are off-limits in The Lounge.
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As someone who actually *has* such remote developers in his team, I assure you that they are not "slaves" but rather equal team members with competitive pay (which is an order of magnitude higher than the average salary in their countries), and even stock options!
And using the term "slave" to describe them is:
(A) derogatory towards them.
(B) derogatory towards the companies that employ them.
(C) derogatory towards actual victims of slavery or human trafficking in general.
Even if I disregard your attitude and opinions about your classmates (which I do, because I don't know them and I lack context) - your responses to some of your future peers here on this forum are way out of line. You would do well to take a step back and tone it down a bit. You complain about lazy spoiled millennials. You may not be lazy, but you do sound a bit like the latter two adjectives.
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In answer to the simple question: "Is it good idea to quit CS for a job?" Sadly, many employers won't even interview you if you don't have a degree on your CV. So quitting your degree to get a job is quite a risk.
Member 14971499 wrote: They have better grades than me
And yet, you are 'better' than them? Even if you are a better programmer, that's not CS. They are clearly getting something right. Maybe you should be asking for help from them, rather than giving it.
Member 14971499 wrote: pretend I can't program because I have to be "good teamplayer"
Being a good team player is also pretty high on an employer's list, so you are learning a useful skill.
However.... if you are hating your degree so much that you are heading for a fail, then quitting would be the logical thing to do. No point spending 3 years getting nowhere. But getting any job in IT, without a degree, is going to be hard.
P.S. I don't have a degree and, even after spending decades in IT, on several occasions, I've still failed to get an interview for that reason. It's very frustrating! 
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5teveH wrote: And yet, you are 'better' than them?
Yeah, I'm shocked myself, because that means that this degree is totally useless.
5teveH wrote: Even if you are a better programmer, that's not CS.
So what is it then? If you look for work, what are they asking for? If you can cook coffee? Or maybe talk bullshit for hours, while your asian/eastern european co-workers do your work? I think they ask if you can actually program, solve very hard problems, algorithms, show your projects.
5teveH wrote: They are clearly getting something right.
Yeah, copying and pasting, being con artists and getting away with it. Because if they got grades in programming assignments and they are not able to code, so how did they do them? I mean they don't know the basics. It's like you were a doctor and you met another doctor who don't have a clue where human heart is placed in the body, what would you think?
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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Generally, it's true that CS is not software. Software is about designing, implementing, testing, and documenting code. It's about distilling and abstracting specs to their essence, so that an architecture can implement them in a way where the application code doesn't contain all kinds of low-level crap that has nothing to do with the specs.
CS is about NP completeness and other mathematical things that are relevant to software, but only in very specific settings. In my opinion, this is often emphasized to the detriment of software. But if the purpose is to graduate CS majors who will go on to get a PhD/ScD and serve as heirs to the current faculty, well...
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Yeah, I agree with you. You are totally write but still we had classes in making software - programming. And still algortihms don't exist in vaccum, they exist in the programming world. The same goes for testing, designing, and documentation. You have to be able to code what you are documenting and have coded something you will test and how will you implement non existing code? You have to be able to code. In the end of the day someone has to code the real thing. If we have war today who will they ask for help in let us say, programming some military system, a not so nice, "arrogant" real programmer or nice "teamplayer"/ con artist who don't even know what a class is but can write some imaginary documentation? Well, I think I know the answer.
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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You're right that for the vast majority of software jobs, it's about code, not CS.
However, getting along with others on your team has value. For one thing, managers don't want to be parents dealing with squabbling siblings. And if you're seen as arrogant, you won't get much help from even your competent co-workers.
But "team player" can also be a euphemism for someone who is expected to pull more than their weight while getting paid the same as all the other assembly line workers. If that doesn't get sorted in whatever you consider to be a reasonable timeframe, it's time to start looking for your next job.
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5teveH wrote: team player
"team player" is just an euphemism for "modern slave" that were invented by western societies, so that they don't feel guilty when an indian or asian or eastern european do the job for the whole team  It's like calling a prostitue a businesswoman.
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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Member 14971499 wrote: They have better grades than me
Out of your entire post, this is what grabbed my attention. I would otherwise have said you're at a bad college and you have incompetent teachers (it happens), but if you're so much better than your peers, and yet they get the better grades...something doesn't jive.
Whether you graduate or not, set your expectations right - take a job, any job, even if it's entry-level. In fact expect that to be the case. If you're any good, you will be noticed and move up the echelons. Just don't expect to be paid top dollar on your first day. Or--looking back on my own career--your first decade.
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dandy72 wrote: Just don't expect to be paid top dollar on your first day. Or--looking back on my own career--your first decade.
I'm still waiting! 
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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You need a "major": AI, Quantum Computing, Cybernetics.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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I am pretty sure that you, my man, got it all wrong
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You got an amazing point of view, but maybe I had the same before I became cynical and... less young. Neither your classmates nor your teachers are your friends. Keep them as temporary allies because they outnumber you by a lot. The college is your tax shield and you'd be fool to give it up. Start a business and start selling while you are studying. Use their infrastructure and see if you can trick some classmates to work for you for free. But that's nothing compared to girls you will miss when you quit college. In my opinion, ideally college should be 80% about girls, 20% about tax-free profit. Don't count on getting much education there. Self-education is the only kind of education there is (Isaac Asimov's wisdom, not mine)
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I did, and it was the correct thing for me to do. That doesn't mean it is right for you.
Although degrees in this field are less important today than when I quit, I had skills.
I have never looked at someone's qualifications when I have employed them.
Nothing succeeds like a budgie without teeth.
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Speaking as someone who doesn't have a fully-fledged CS degree (I have a minor diploma from a programming-focused institution, only 6 months), and who is largely self-taught: the piece of paper can be a real help, especially with getting your first job and with seeking employment internationally.
I basically can't just emigrate and then look for a job because the emigration rules are largely "must have a degree". If I could get an international job offer and if the local laws would be ok with it (most countries have a "you should hire local first and only bring in people if you really can't find them locally" - which I have no problem with, it's fair) then I could perhaps emigrate.
I've considered doing night school just to earn that piece of paper - I've been in the industry for 20 years, so I'm sure it's well within my reach - but that's quite expensive at this stage in the game (house, wife, child, car payments, etc).
If you can stick it out, my recommendation is to do so. If you can find a part-time job (or can do whatever is required to get you through your courses at night), then go for it - having some money to spend and some real-world experience is a great thing.
------------------------------------------------
If you say that getting the money
is the most important thing
You will spend your life
completely wasting your time
You will be doing things
you don't like doing
In order to go on living
That is, to go on doing things
you don't like doing
Which is stupid.
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I don't know why you're asking us.
It sounds like you're smart enough to figure it our for yourself.
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Quote: I stopped to go to lectures because they are just waste of my time.
Quote: They have better grades than me.
I suspect a strong correlation here.
Quit and freelance. I doubt you will ever be happy working WITH people or FOR anyone. You seem smart enough to be successful working by yourself, if you can avoid insulting your customers.
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