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Quote: It's not "perceived laziness", it's the real laziness and the real lack of skill.
I can't comment on the individuals concerned as I don't know them, but that is a rather sweeping comment to make. You've already said that there is at least one hard-working student in the group and claim that your class mates already knew how to program before joining the course.
Quote: That's why employers have to hire slaves... I mean... "outsource" to Eastern Europe and Asia, so that one indian can do the job of hundres of intern lazy con artists.
It is unlikely that one person, Indian or otherwise, can do the job of hundreds of Interns. Please stop using the word "slaves" to reference these hard-working outsourcers. It might seem like poor pay to those of us lucky enough to live in wealthy countries, but they are usually relatively highly paid compared to their own community.
Quote: than I suppose you never even opened a programming book in your life.
I'm fairly sure that an Engineer who has been a member here for over 14 years has read a technical book or two in their time!
You're sailing a little close to the wind with some of the comments you are making. This is a site for professionals (actual or budding) so please try to keep your comments civil, non-condescending and non-insulting.
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Well said. 
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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CHill60 wrote: Please stop using the word "slaves" to reference these hard-working outsourcers
I think calling spade for a spade isn't insulting. What really is insulting is that western societies use those people as slaves because someone have to make work of those lazy spoiled millenials from western colleges.
CHill60 wrote: I'm fairly sure that an Engineer who has been a member here for over 14 years has read a technical book or two in their time!
So now I understand why Indians, Asians and Eastern Europeans have to make your job, because they read books 
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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You need to lose the chip on your shoulder.
And while you may consider some people slaves, no one takes a job unless they consider it to be the best one available to them. If people have freedom of choice, they're not slaves. I'd counter that many in the West are slaves, but saying more would be getting into topics that are off-limits in The Lounge.
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As someone who actually *has* such remote developers in his team, I assure you that they are not "slaves" but rather equal team members with competitive pay (which is an order of magnitude higher than the average salary in their countries), and even stock options!
And using the term "slave" to describe them is:
(A) derogatory towards them.
(B) derogatory towards the companies that employ them.
(C) derogatory towards actual victims of slavery or human trafficking in general.
Even if I disregard your attitude and opinions about your classmates (which I do, because I don't know them and I lack context) - your responses to some of your future peers here on this forum are way out of line. You would do well to take a step back and tone it down a bit. You complain about lazy spoiled millennials. You may not be lazy, but you do sound a bit like the latter two adjectives.
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In answer to the simple question: "Is it good idea to quit CS for a job?" Sadly, many employers won't even interview you if you don't have a degree on your CV. So quitting your degree to get a job is quite a risk.
Member 14971499 wrote: They have better grades than me
And yet, you are 'better' than them? Even if you are a better programmer, that's not CS. They are clearly getting something right. Maybe you should be asking for help from them, rather than giving it.
Member 14971499 wrote: pretend I can't program because I have to be "good teamplayer"
Being a good team player is also pretty high on an employer's list, so you are learning a useful skill.
However.... if you are hating your degree so much that you are heading for a fail, then quitting would be the logical thing to do. No point spending 3 years getting nowhere. But getting any job in IT, without a degree, is going to be hard.
P.S. I don't have a degree and, even after spending decades in IT, on several occasions, I've still failed to get an interview for that reason. It's very frustrating! 
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5teveH wrote: And yet, you are 'better' than them?
Yeah, I'm shocked myself, because that means that this degree is totally useless.
5teveH wrote: Even if you are a better programmer, that's not CS.
So what is it then? If you look for work, what are they asking for? If you can cook coffee? Or maybe talk bullshit for hours, while your asian/eastern european co-workers do your work? I think they ask if you can actually program, solve very hard problems, algorithms, show your projects.
5teveH wrote: They are clearly getting something right.
Yeah, copying and pasting, being con artists and getting away with it. Because if they got grades in programming assignments and they are not able to code, so how did they do them? I mean they don't know the basics. It's like you were a doctor and you met another doctor who don't have a clue where human heart is placed in the body, what would you think?
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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Generally, it's true that CS is not software. Software is about designing, implementing, testing, and documenting code. It's about distilling and abstracting specs to their essence, so that an architecture can implement them in a way where the application code doesn't contain all kinds of low-level crap that has nothing to do with the specs.
CS is about NP completeness and other mathematical things that are relevant to software, but only in very specific settings. In my opinion, this is often emphasized to the detriment of software. But if the purpose is to graduate CS majors who will go on to get a PhD/ScD and serve as heirs to the current faculty, well...
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Yeah, I agree with you. You are totally write but still we had classes in making software - programming. And still algortihms don't exist in vaccum, they exist in the programming world. The same goes for testing, designing, and documentation. You have to be able to code what you are documenting and have coded something you will test and how will you implement non existing code? You have to be able to code. In the end of the day someone has to code the real thing. If we have war today who will they ask for help in let us say, programming some military system, a not so nice, "arrogant" real programmer or nice "teamplayer"/ con artist who don't even know what a class is but can write some imaginary documentation? Well, I think I know the answer.
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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You're right that for the vast majority of software jobs, it's about code, not CS.
However, getting along with others on your team has value. For one thing, managers don't want to be parents dealing with squabbling siblings. And if you're seen as arrogant, you won't get much help from even your competent co-workers.
But "team player" can also be a euphemism for someone who is expected to pull more than their weight while getting paid the same as all the other assembly line workers. If that doesn't get sorted in whatever you consider to be a reasonable timeframe, it's time to start looking for your next job.
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5teveH wrote: team player
"team player" is just an euphemism for "modern slave" that were invented by western societies, so that they don't feel guilty when an indian or asian or eastern european do the job for the whole team  It's like calling a prostitue a businesswoman.
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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Member 14971499 wrote: They have better grades than me
Out of your entire post, this is what grabbed my attention. I would otherwise have said you're at a bad college and you have incompetent teachers (it happens), but if you're so much better than your peers, and yet they get the better grades...something doesn't jive.
Whether you graduate or not, set your expectations right - take a job, any job, even if it's entry-level. In fact expect that to be the case. If you're any good, you will be noticed and move up the echelons. Just don't expect to be paid top dollar on your first day. Or--looking back on my own career--your first decade.
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dandy72 wrote: Just don't expect to be paid top dollar on your first day. Or--looking back on my own career--your first decade.
I'm still waiting! 
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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You need a "major": AI, Quantum Computing, Cybernetics.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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I am pretty sure that you, my man, got it all wrong
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You got an amazing point of view, but maybe I had the same before I became cynical and... less young. Neither your classmates nor your teachers are your friends. Keep them as temporary allies because they outnumber you by a lot. The college is your tax shield and you'd be fool to give it up. Start a business and start selling while you are studying. Use their infrastructure and see if you can trick some classmates to work for you for free. But that's nothing compared to girls you will miss when you quit college. In my opinion, ideally college should be 80% about girls, 20% about tax-free profit. Don't count on getting much education there. Self-education is the only kind of education there is (Isaac Asimov's wisdom, not mine)
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I did, and it was the correct thing for me to do. That doesn't mean it is right for you.
Although degrees in this field are less important today than when I quit, I had skills.
I have never looked at someone's qualifications when I have employed them.
Nothing succeeds like a budgie without teeth.
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Speaking as someone who doesn't have a fully-fledged CS degree (I have a minor diploma from a programming-focused institution, only 6 months), and who is largely self-taught: the piece of paper can be a real help, especially with getting your first job and with seeking employment internationally.
I basically can't just emigrate and then look for a job because the emigration rules are largely "must have a degree". If I could get an international job offer and if the local laws would be ok with it (most countries have a "you should hire local first and only bring in people if you really can't find them locally" - which I have no problem with, it's fair) then I could perhaps emigrate.
I've considered doing night school just to earn that piece of paper - I've been in the industry for 20 years, so I'm sure it's well within my reach - but that's quite expensive at this stage in the game (house, wife, child, car payments, etc).
If you can stick it out, my recommendation is to do so. If you can find a part-time job (or can do whatever is required to get you through your courses at night), then go for it - having some money to spend and some real-world experience is a great thing.
------------------------------------------------
If you say that getting the money
is the most important thing
You will spend your life
completely wasting your time
You will be doing things
you don't like doing
In order to go on living
That is, to go on doing things
you don't like doing
Which is stupid.
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I don't know why you're asking us.
It sounds like you're smart enough to figure it our for yourself.
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Quote: I stopped to go to lectures because they are just waste of my time.
Quote: They have better grades than me.
I suspect a strong correlation here.
Quit and freelance. I doubt you will ever be happy working WITH people or FOR anyone. You seem smart enough to be successful working by yourself, if you can avoid insulting your customers.
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Do not drop out of college. You will almost certainly regret it later in life maybe after you have 4 and 5 year old children. You're failure to get a degree will very likely leak into your marital relationship and cause strain.
If you aren't getting along with your classmates, you may have problems getting along with your future coworkers and spouse/children.
I can tell you this because I went through a very similar situation. I was a Bachelor in Science student of Electrical Engineering at Okstate and I wound up leaving to eventually get a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science at Cameron University. BS in CS is much easier than BS in EE and I regret that I took the easy way out. I later attempted MS in CS at Okstate through distance learning. I didn't get any more bad grades but I didn't finish that either.
I spent much of my life trying to shield my my significant other and children from my mistakes and my children's laziness routinely got under my skin because of my past failures. Ultimately, my relationship with my significant other deteriorated to the dismal state it is now.
Do you see where this is going? If you want a successfully marriage and career, you need to learn to get along with others and finish college. If BS in CS is too easy for you then consider BS in ABET Computer Engineering. BS in Computer Engineering is harder but it's much more important today. Right now, many corporations are trying to replace programmers with people that "drag boxes" around on the screen through Power Automate, SharePoint and other tools. This is *not* an enjoyable way to develop. It can *sometimes* work out for professional developers like you and me, but it often winds up creating half working spaghetti code.
Is you are burnt out on CS, try enrolling with COOP through your university. If your university's CS program falls under the engineering department, getting a COOP job should be easy for you once your reach Junior level standing, but you may be able to get in sooner. I think COOP will allow you to alternate semesters of employment and school so you can concentrate on one of them at a time. Don't get a job while you are in school unless it's COOP. It's demoralizing and will help you develop cockiness and a bad attitude. A full or even part time job and CS/Engineering do *not* go well together.
No, you don't need a degree to program. There are many successful people in life that succeeded in programming without going through the theoretical "nonsense" of CS. Unfortunately, there are some employers that will cap your salary or won't even consider you if you haven't completed at least 12 hours Calculus based math sequence and a CS degree. Other's won't touch you unless your degree is ABET certified and some won't take you unless you have at least a 3.0 GPA. If you are struggling with morale, then you should talk to your advisor about COOP. That would be a great way for you to prove how awesome you really are!!!
Another thing, with the way Artificial Intelligence is going, I would be a bit cautious of pursuing just a BS in Computer Science. You may need to go on to MS in CS or get an ABET engineering degree to be successful in IT. Network admins still seem to do pretty good these days but programmers are getting shut of of employment in my sector. For what's it's worth I work for a University as a Staff programmer since I only have a Bachelor degree.
Really, consider Computer Engineering is you are as smart as you say you are 
Best Wishes,
Shawn
I need to go to my day job now... Also, I'm sorry for the grammar errors but I need to go. Blessings to you and your future family!!!
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I graduated college with 2 degrees: Forestry and Sociology. I had a single 1 credit computer lab course in college. What did I do for my first job out of college? I worked in Real Estate. From there I progressed to a software company who's sole product was for the Real Estate industry. I started in Support, but eventually moved to Development. 10 years later, I got my CS degree. Now I'm working on my master's.
My point is, did I need those 3 bachelor degrees to become a programmer? No. Would have I have been hired at the software company without a degree? No. Without my degree, I would probably still be working low-end office jobs today.
In my CS classes, I knew more than everyone there because of my real-world experience. Did I have to put in more work in the group projects to get the project to were I wanted it to be? Yes. Did I blame my group-mates for not being as proficient as me? No. They didn't have the benefit of my experience and skills. Development is a group effort, even if you are free-lancing (unless you are only coding for yourself, but that rarely makes money; and as soon as it does, it is no longer a sole effort). Learning to work well with others that aren't as technically proficient as you will be the best skill you will learn from your college classes, but that will be useful no matter which job you get.
Bond
Keep all things as simple as possible, but no simpler. -said someone, somewhere
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It really depends but to give some background, I am a self taught programmer that never finished college
and dropped out. I was a huge computer nerd growing up and learned 6502 assembly (Apple II), z80 assembly (TI-85), x86 assembly using MASM and TASM, basic, turbo pascal, turbo c and visual basic. That was just before I was out of High School. I was big in to hacking, cracking, boxing, phreaking and the allure of the darker side of technology long before the infamous Hacker movie of the 90's. Angelina used to be sooo hot, lol.
Fast forward to college and I was supremely bored. I was going for a network technologies degree and wanted a CS degree. I only made it two years. I eventually just stopped showing up for class except to ace the exams. I was already Microsoft Certified for some of the classes the teacher was teaching and often the teacher was asking me questions or I had to correct them. I was also working entry level positions at the time building pcs, installing networks, excel automation with vba and access, database and web development etc. Basically anything to get some field experience and make money while I was going to school.
There are generally two types of people. The ones who could care less and just want the degree and the ones that are actually interested in the material. More often than not the ones interested in the material already know a lot of the material but the classes still have to be designed to teach the people that just want the piece of paper. It really sucks for the motivated people who love technology but school is more about money and clout these days than actual academia.
To answer your question, six of one and half a dozen of the other. In some ways I wish I had the degree because I am very weak on things like Big O, Design Patterns and Unit Testing which are very important to some larger companies. On the other hand I can mop the floor with people when it comes to algorithms, debugging and cranking out solid code. I was DevOps before it was even a thing, mainly because necessity was the mother of invention. Because I did not have a degree, I usually ended up working for smaller businesses which meant lower pay and benefits and lower budgets for tools and hardware making the job more difficult. You really need to get creative to get the job done well.
Fast forward 20+ years and I feel like I am somewhat successful. It is definitely doable to make it without a degree if you have talent but it will be a more difficult path. It is a lot easier these days with how quickly technology is evolving. I make well over 100k a year, have great benefits but I work more in a management role now and don't get to program as much as I would like to.
Things to keep in mind:
1) A degree will open more doors for you and give you more options but it is not the end all and not having one will not necessarily keep you from being successful but it will take longer.
2) Be prepared to make less money than the idiots that have a degree. This is especially true starting out. It's less relevant once you get enough work experience and have references.
3) You are still going to have to work with and deal with those people and will still be expected to be a team player.
Personally, I feel like degree's are becoming less and less relevant as college gets more and more expensive and the fact you rarely end up using 75% of what you learn. I think more targeted learning that is more specific to job can be much more valuable. There is a point where paying back 100k to 150k or whatever you spend on College is not worth the extra salary your going to make until you get enough relevant work experience.
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This is the most important part of the training: Getting along with other people. Observe and learn carefully, because the lessons learned here will be essential to whatever you end up doing, coding or otherwise. You'll find such people everywhere you go. Be ready to teach those who need help, be prepared to learn from those who are better than you, and learn to recognize the difference. Someday you're going to need all their help to complete projects bigger than one person can handle alone.
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There is a great irony that the workforce can sometimes be so similar to exactly like your group.
If you have a job lined up so your foot is in the door for some experience, you would probably be OK going for it. After you have some experience, the number of employers who won't talk to you because you lack a degree is very minimal (in the U.S.).
wrote: PS: I know that I will not always prorgam that much at my work and I still have to put up with lazy co-workers and waste time at the meetings but at least I get money for that and I can pay off my loan.
Something to consider is that it seems easy to say that now. If you're passionate about this stuff then you may not find it so easy to sell yourself into apathy.
As you deal with the willfully ignorant and incompetent in these group scenarios, you are likely acquiring soft skills you don't realize you are acquiring. Those people have been and will continue to be hired into the shops you will work in. If you can learn how to handle that, especially if you can learn how to change their attitudes or inspire them, it will pay massive dividends.
In the end, you might be able to flip your statement on its head.
"At least we're not getting paid for this."
Maybe not so absurd as it sounds if you consider that once you are working "for real" that stuff can be even more demotivating and rob you of your passion because you've been on both sides of the fence and seen there is no greener grass.
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