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Member 14971499 wrote:
So my question is: What does my degree exactly proving?
That you are capable of starting AND FINISHING what you started. That, not the degree itself, says lots about an employee.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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Yeah, see it through, even if it wrecks you! Lets go for another Phyrric victory!
David Crow wrote: That, not the degree itself, says lots about an employee.
Yes, that he learned to shut up. That's why I don't have a degree 
If you looking for someone who pleases you, then I'm not it. And nice enough, my first job, one of the question interviews was wether I could hold my ground if I knew I was right. Question was asked by my boss-to-become, and he imposing and been in the military. He also made it very clear that he would not accept weeks of whining about decisions made 
Arguments were short, factual and to the point.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Oh! How I wish my boss(es...) were like that!
Instead I get umpteen versions of 'requirements' from each (usually mutually contradictory) then questioned on why so-and-so doesn't do what they want (this particular requirement, of course, was never in the requested 'requirements'...).
AAAArghhh...
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David Crow wrote: That you are capable of starting AND FINISHING what you started.
I totally agree with this.
Anyone can complete a task that they enjoy and find easy. Being able to complete something difficult that you do not enjoy is what really counts. That's why it's called "work".
I have hired people with a degree and I have hired people without a degree. I have never hired someone that quit their course.
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Member 14971499 wrote: Here I am again. I don't know if you remember me
It would probably help if you changed your user name. I always get you mixed up with Member 14971498... 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Mark Twain
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Member 14971499 wrote: because they are con artists for sure.
Paranoid much.
CI/CD = Continuous Impediment/Continuous Despair
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Get your degree. Life changes across time and it will never be a problem having it. But maybe some day you will need it.
The fact you get a job now doesn't mean you want a new one in the future that could require that degree.
Good luck with your decision.
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Why are you so invested in "getting a job"?
Taking this at face value, you are probably not made for a "job". If you are a high achiever, like you make yourself out to be, then you will always feel like everyone around you is slowing you down.
The paper is not useless, it will be with you for the rest of your life. It shows perserverance.
However, I would encourage you to look at things differently in a much larger perspective. Your objective is acquiring marketable skills, so later in life you can make plenty of money and acquire wealth so you can chose to live as you wish, do what you want, wherever you want to.
It would be nice if you really like what you are doing as it will feel like you are not working.
So what are you going to do? Mope about your class mates and whine?
No, you are going to make the best of it, see the learning opportunities around you. Educate yourself how to work with your class mates to achieve your goals. Branch out to other disciplines, self educate on data science, AI, statistics, psychology, Azure, whatever. Take on a few projects, transfer to a different CS program with higher standards, etc. etc.
The absolute worst that can happen is that your finish your degree angry with the CS world and you start whining about that to a recruiter. A good one will ask "what did you do about it?
I have plenty of projects if you are looking for stuff to learn.
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I believe you've confused University and/or College with an Educational Experience.
Many people do confuse the two.
University or College is actually A Game. 
It is A Game you play until you receive the game-winning proof: The Degree
You then take that proof and pass it into the next game: Obtaining & Holding A Paying Job
Here's the thing that will make you happiest:
Obtain whatever you need to get the easiest* job which you enjoy the most that provides you with the most $$$.
But remember the $$$ is only so you can have freedom.
Freedom to leave when the Game Goes Sour.
Freedom to do your own thing in your off time.
Freedom to maybe even Build Your Own Game and Make The Game What You Want.
It's all Games.
You've just discovered that it's all Games at an earlier stage than many people do.
*Easiest just means the thing that feels the least like a job to you.
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Taking your post as a whole, you seem to be a bit "mixed up" and starting to head towards "messed up".
This is not meant to be mean - but food for thought. You look out at the world from behind your eyes and see what you see - or - what you think you see. The last paragraph is very telling in the respect. The worry about being sabotaged and blaming your own actions on the others in your team.
If you read what the poster of this comment[^] has to say you may realize that your views may change: whether or not reality, around them, has or has not.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: If you read what the poster of this comment[^] has to say you may realize that your views may change: whether or not reality, around them, has or has not.
Unlikely! It's the same person. Member 14971499.
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jsc42 wrote: Unlikely! It's the same person. Member 14971499.
That was my point !
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Quote: So my question is: What does my degree exactly proving?
Tenacity. It's not a quality kept in high regard these days, but take my word for it, it's badly needed if you are going to practice programming professionally. Do you imagine big software projects are all fun and enjoyment? There is the thrill of finding a nice solution followed by the boredom of having to implement it and writing code for all the corner cases and input checking and so on and so forth (yawn). Reminds me sometimes of what they say about the life of airline pilots: hours of boredom interrupted by moments of shear panic.
Member 14971499 wrote: PS: I know that I will not always prorgam that much at my work and I still have to put up with lazy co-workers and waste time at the meetings
You see: you are alredy getting the hang of it
As Yoda said: "Patience you must have my young padawan"
Mircea
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Member 14971499 wrote: In one week I can finish 800-pages programming book
If you can understand all of an 800 page programming book about a new subject in a week, start your own company, you're a genius. Like others have said, some job opportunities will simply not be available to you without a degree. Being condescending towards others about their perceived laziness or lack of skill is generally not a trait employers are looking for.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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jeron1 wrote: If you can understand all of an 800 page programming book about a new subject in a week, start your own company, you're a genius.
If you think it makes me a genius, than I suppose you never even opened a programming book in your life. I already went trough many such books and I don't feel like a genius.
jeron1 wrote: Being condescending towards others about their perceived laziness or lack of skill is generally not a trait employers are looking for.
It's not "perceived laziness", it's the real laziness and the real lack of skill. That's why employers have to hire slaves... I mean... "outsource" to Eastern Europe and Asia, so that one indian can do the job of hundres of intern lazy con artists.
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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Good luck.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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Quote: It's not "perceived laziness", it's the real laziness and the real lack of skill.
I can't comment on the individuals concerned as I don't know them, but that is a rather sweeping comment to make. You've already said that there is at least one hard-working student in the group and claim that your class mates already knew how to program before joining the course.
Quote: That's why employers have to hire slaves... I mean... "outsource" to Eastern Europe and Asia, so that one indian can do the job of hundres of intern lazy con artists.
It is unlikely that one person, Indian or otherwise, can do the job of hundreds of Interns. Please stop using the word "slaves" to reference these hard-working outsourcers. It might seem like poor pay to those of us lucky enough to live in wealthy countries, but they are usually relatively highly paid compared to their own community.
Quote: than I suppose you never even opened a programming book in your life.
I'm fairly sure that an Engineer who has been a member here for over 14 years has read a technical book or two in their time!
You're sailing a little close to the wind with some of the comments you are making. This is a site for professionals (actual or budding) so please try to keep your comments civil, non-condescending and non-insulting.
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Well said. 
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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CHill60 wrote: Please stop using the word "slaves" to reference these hard-working outsourcers
I think calling spade for a spade isn't insulting. What really is insulting is that western societies use those people as slaves because someone have to make work of those lazy spoiled millenials from western colleges.
CHill60 wrote: I'm fairly sure that an Engineer who has been a member here for over 14 years has read a technical book or two in their time!
So now I understand why Indians, Asians and Eastern Europeans have to make your job, because they read books
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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You need to lose the chip on your shoulder.
And while you may consider some people slaves, no one takes a job unless they consider it to be the best one available to them. If people have freedom of choice, they're not slaves. I'd counter that many in the West are slaves, but saying more would be getting into topics that are off-limits in The Lounge.
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As someone who actually *has* such remote developers in his team, I assure you that they are not "slaves" but rather equal team members with competitive pay (which is an order of magnitude higher than the average salary in their countries), and even stock options!
And using the term "slave" to describe them is:
(A) derogatory towards them.
(B) derogatory towards the companies that employ them.
(C) derogatory towards actual victims of slavery or human trafficking in general.
Even if I disregard your attitude and opinions about your classmates (which I do, because I don't know them and I lack context) - your responses to some of your future peers here on this forum are way out of line. You would do well to take a step back and tone it down a bit. You complain about lazy spoiled millennials. You may not be lazy, but you do sound a bit like the latter two adjectives.
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In answer to the simple question: "Is it good idea to quit CS for a job?" Sadly, many employers won't even interview you if you don't have a degree on your CV. So quitting your degree to get a job is quite a risk.
Member 14971499 wrote: They have better grades than me
And yet, you are 'better' than them? Even if you are a better programmer, that's not CS. They are clearly getting something right. Maybe you should be asking for help from them, rather than giving it.
Member 14971499 wrote: pretend I can't program because I have to be "good teamplayer"
Being a good team player is also pretty high on an employer's list, so you are learning a useful skill.
However.... if you are hating your degree so much that you are heading for a fail, then quitting would be the logical thing to do. No point spending 3 years getting nowhere. But getting any job in IT, without a degree, is going to be hard.
P.S. I don't have a degree and, even after spending decades in IT, on several occasions, I've still failed to get an interview for that reason. It's very frustrating! 
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5teveH wrote: And yet, you are 'better' than them?
Yeah, I'm shocked myself, because that means that this degree is totally useless.
5teveH wrote: Even if you are a better programmer, that's not CS.
So what is it then? If you look for work, what are they asking for? If you can cook coffee? Or maybe talk bullshit for hours, while your asian/eastern european co-workers do your work? I think they ask if you can actually program, solve very hard problems, algorithms, show your projects.
5teveH wrote: They are clearly getting something right.
Yeah, copying and pasting, being con artists and getting away with it. Because if they got grades in programming assignments and they are not able to code, so how did they do them? I mean they don't know the basics. It's like you were a doctor and you met another doctor who don't have a clue where human heart is placed in the body, what would you think?
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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Generally, it's true that CS is not software. Software is about designing, implementing, testing, and documenting code. It's about distilling and abstracting specs to their essence, so that an architecture can implement them in a way where the application code doesn't contain all kinds of low-level crap that has nothing to do with the specs.
CS is about NP completeness and other mathematical things that are relevant to software, but only in very specific settings. In my opinion, this is often emphasized to the detriment of software. But if the purpose is to graduate CS majors who will go on to get a PhD/ScD and serve as heirs to the current faculty, well...
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Yeah, I agree with you. You are totally write but still we had classes in making software - programming. And still algortihms don't exist in vaccum, they exist in the programming world. The same goes for testing, designing, and documentation. You have to be able to code what you are documenting and have coded something you will test and how will you implement non existing code? You have to be able to code. In the end of the day someone has to code the real thing. If we have war today who will they ask for help in let us say, programming some military system, a not so nice, "arrogant" real programmer or nice "teamplayer"/ con artist who don't even know what a class is but can write some imaginary documentation? Well, I think I know the answer.
modified 3-Jun-21 21:01pm.
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