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OriginalGriff wrote: Damn right. Here, the dog would be put down by order of a court, if not voluntarily.
Ditto here. Bad upbringing makes aggressive dogs and at the first offence, they put down because "rehabilitation" is often not possible, and expensive if it is.
..but any animal is a sum of genotype and fenotype; I'll not blame any animal for doing as it did, as it acted on those. A human? I often do; we actively take memories and morally value them when in rest. We (often) know the consequences before we act.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Yep.
I've known Rottweilers that were really friendly, that you could leave with annoying kids and the kids would be fine when you came back (the dog might be scarred for life however).
Training and upbringing are the key - get it right and all dogs are fine*. Don't bother, or get it wrong and ... you get a killer. Trouble is, a lot of people want a "vicious dog" to make them look "harder". 
* Except possibly Dobermans. Every one of those I've met has been on the edge of freaking out ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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OriginalGriff wrote: Training and upbringing are the key - get it right and all dogs are fine
I want to believe this  , but, when a breed has been selectively bred for centuries for aggression and hyper-vigilance, for being used as a weapon, I would not take a chance having such a breed.
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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I agree: Chihuahuas are evil, and should all be destroyed ... 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Chihuahuas have to small brains to be truly evil.
Doberman is the dog breed I consider truly evil.
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*Swats a fly*
What is a chiguiaia?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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OriginalGriff wrote: I've known Rottweilers that were really friendly
Yep, so do I. She was kept in a cage, because my family feared her. I didn't. And one day, she'd had trouble jumping, crying. As did I. She'd attack everyone cominig near, except me. Tumor in her head.
But me, a human puppy, was always safe. And she defended me from everyone, until she couldn't and was carried. To her grave. Was never to know "where".
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Rottweilers are generally friendly. But they are very protective of their owner.
OriginalGriff wrote: Except possibly Dobermans. Every one of those I've met has been on the edge of freaking out
They were bred to be mentally unstable.
Friedrich Louis Tobermann (Yes, Tobermann) was a dog catcher, tax collector and a night policeman. He needed extra protection he thought. So he bred the meanest dogs he could find into a breed that was as mad as possible...
An abomination if you ask me.
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Jörgen Andersson wrote: Rottweilers are generally friendly. But they are very protective of their owner.
Best possible gift for any girlfriend.
..but the beast might force you to sleep downstairs.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Many years ago when I did my military service one of the guys that served with us was a watchman in his civilian life.
He had two very well trained rottweilers to help him with that.
When he was gone his girlfriend had to take care of them, which she didn't really like, as she was a bit intimidated by them.
One night when she was walking the dogs she got harassed by a gang of teenagers, and the dogs did exactly what they were trained to do. (Which means noone actually got hurt, but some kids needed their laundry done)
After that he complained that they weren't his dogs any more, she spoiled them rotten.
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Hehe, similar experience
Dogs are territorial, and that territory includes you, no matter where you are. If you there, that's territory, including a few meters around you. They do not stop fighting if they loosing, depending on the force of a pack, or you running.
A girl with a big dog is a safe one.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: This more a discussion if free will exists, and there's no proof for free will.
A strictly scientific criterion would be that an assertion, where no evidence would disprove it, asserts nothing.
However, if people act as if there is free will, claim to perceive it, act on it, observe it, that is a reality.
I don't believe Giant experiences any "guilt;" his funeral "apology" exists in a complex cultural context of S.E. Asian Theravadin Buddhism interlaced with lots of magical/animist left-overs, and strong top-notes of fatalism.
That said: I have seen dogs acting/looking as if they are aware they did something "wrong" when discovered tearing up something: is that more than just stimulus-response to learning punishment follows certain actions ?
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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BillWoodruff wrote: A strictly scientific criterion would be that an assertion, where no evidence would disprove it, asserts nothing.
And hence, me is superman. We use maths to predict what is biologically possible, with reasonable results. Couldn't predict the Scarlet Witch, so your opinion holds.
BillWoodruff wrote: I don't believe
In taxes, still it exists. What you choose to believe makes you human. If you measure instead of believe, you a scientist.
BillWoodruff wrote: That said: I have seen dogs acting/looking as if they are aware they did something "wrong" when discovered tearing up something: is that more than just stimulus-response to learning punishment follows certain actions ?
That might be the same, but it is "learning" nonetheless.
And "acting" is true; they read body language, and inflection of your voice, as well as the way you present. If it understood and could combine it with memory, it would avoid the situation as a human would. As for humans, we don't accept any competition, we rule the land we inhabit and there's little land we don't rule.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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BillWoodruff wrote: A strictly scientific criterion would be that an assertion, where no evidence would disprove it, asserts nothing.
Phrased like that, it is equal to it's opposite assertion.
BillWoodruff wrote: However, if people act as if there is free will, claim to perceive it, act on it, observe it, that is a reality.
How? Perceiving it don't make it so, nor acting or observing it. I experienced such, heightened reaction, perception, reaction when challenged as a kid. Had nothing to do with free will, but being small, red haired and wearing glasses. My reality was as perceived, and we did act instead of observe.
BillWoodruff wrote: That said: I have seen dogs acting/looking as if they are aware they did something "wrong" when discovered tearing up something: is that more than just stimulus-response to learning punishment follows certain actions ?
I own a cat named "Well Done" if translated to English, he more than 10 years. My parents bought a puppy, some small but "energezing rabbit" batteries in her, running around the cat in circles for fun.
Cat strikes out, after five minutes, toppling the poor puppy. Both looking at me with the expression "we did nothing wrong".
Me, a half German, relate to that. We did not do anything wrong. We just did.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Quote: Giant wagged his tail and was clearly happy to meet the wife of the victim Wanphen Khumkhong, also 56.
Relatives inquired about Giant's condition and if he could eat while muzzled.
He performed the ceremony and soon left.
We're talking about a killer dog here! 
Regarding the scorpion/frog story, I've also heard it told with a sweet old lady and a snake. (once famously told by an ex-President) 
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
"Hope is contagious"
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It was noted that a passerby heard said apology, the witness stated they overheard the canine in question mentioning something about "liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti".
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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The story of the scorpion and the frog is older than most Russian folk tales. It appears in the Talmud (Nedarim 41:1), which was written between 220 CE and 550 CE.
I'm fairly certain that even this is not the earliest version of the tale...
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Indeed, I am aware of that source, and Aesop's (whether it's original Aesop is doubted by scholars) similar (turtle, spider) story, and a medieval Sufi variant.
A commentary I've seen on the Nedarim story ... in which both scorpion and frog survive crossing the river ... is that the man the scorpion stung to death is a man who was about to commit murder, and, thus, the story demonstrates that YHWH may act in mysterious (to humans) ways.
In the Sufi story, both scorpion and frog survive, and, the scorpion stings a poisonous snake about to bite a man. Suggesting divine providence is mysterious ?
Somewhere I have notes on the sources for these, I may be off since I can't find them to refresh my recollection.
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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BillWoodruff wrote: In the Sufi story, both scorpion and frog survive, and, the scorpion stings a poisonous snake about to bite a man. Suggesting divine providence is mysterious ?
If the snake bites the man, both scorpion and frog not affected. You could further complicate it by saying a girl kissed the frog.
Sufi.
I challenge your gods, wearing a copper suit, during a thunderstorm, on any mountain, shouting "all gods are bastards".
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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You know. I had forgotten. until today, how intellectual content triggers your anxieties, and you lose control.
I wish I could help you with this issue.
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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BillWoodruff wrote: and you lose control.
It was easy to dismiss as incidents. Not just incidents here, but the supermarket made it, well, were we now. Last visit was miserable and saved by a girl working at check out. Sometimes she does the groceries as well.
Quote was from Terry Pratchett; still haven't read all the books.
BillWoodruff wrote: I wish I could help you with this issue.
Tx for the idea. Neurological, will not get better.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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So I've got this report, which is supposed to look something like:
Invoice | x | €100
Payment | a | € 50
Credit | b | € 40
------------------
Due | € 10 The customer is currently seeing this, but also something else:
Payment | c | € 70
------------------
Due | € 70
Credit | d | € 25
------------------
Due | € 25 Now, I'd expect something like "this makes no sense, why do I see a payment or a credit without an invoice!?"
And I'd say "this is exactly the data I'm getting from your other system, so this is what I can show you. Garbage in, garbage out."
However, what they're saying is "I don't know what invoice that credit belongs to." (while not untrue this isn't really the issue  )
My answer remains the same though, garbage in garbage out.
So now their "fix" to their problem is to add an extra field "original invoice number", which of course I can only show if the data is correct, so in the first case when the invoice is already shown.
I told them this isn't going to work and the problem will remain.
However, they insist.
The new report will look like:
Invoice | x | | €100
Payment | a | | € 50
Credit | b | x | € 40
----------------------
Due | € 10
Payment | c | | € 70
----------------------
Due | € 70
Credit | d | | € 25
----------------------
Due | € 25 I can already hear them say my fix isn't working 
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when a payment is made via check or credit card, or a credit to the account, an invoice number is not required? very interesting. Do they just make payments/credits under a company or person name? if so, could you just start assigning the oldest invoices, in order, to these payments and credits?
we have a payment web-portal that lets certain users just make payments, and we assign the payment to the oldest invoices first, working our way to the newest. That way the user does not have to remember or choose an invoice number.
forgive me if that is what you already mentioned.
modified 24-Apr-21 11:28am.
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I can't (or won't) do anything, just show the data.
The payments are matched with invoices in another system that I have no knowledge of or access to.
I just get the data in seemingly random order and show it in a report.
Any issues with the data should be fixed in the other system by other people.
The data consists of some thousands customers, about twice as many invoices and maybe hundred details like payments and credit notes.
The number of details alone rang some alarm bells, but apparently this is what it is 
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Where does the payment of 70 come from, given the original statement? Second example also goes to 95, not 100.
Sander Rossel wrote: However, they insist.
On having a due of 25, instead of 10?
Who is going to be financially liable for any faults in the system when going to court?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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