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All excellent points. I had not considered that VS2019 might have updated core OS components. I was tired  That said, if VS2019 is updating core OS stuff, it should be in the standard patch rollout. Segmentation please. As someone else mentioned, it's probably a default in the install s/w.
1 point to MS: although they did not give me a "reboot later" button, I could X off the prompt and keep going.
I guess my perspective was flavored on my most recent video card driver update from NVidea. Their install process messes with my screens (expected) but I did not have to reboot. I consider *any* driver pretty core to the OS.
Thank you all
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
modified 17-Apr-21 15:35pm.
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charlieg wrote: 1 point to MS: although they did not give me a "reboot later" button, I could X off the prompt and keep going.
That's probably an error, not a feature  
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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"Reboot later" - yes, thank goodness for that option. Far too many apps still ask you to "Reboot to complete the installation" but I find it's rarely actually necessary. Only today I installed WireShark (not used it before) and it asked to reboot. Not convenient right now, so "reboot later" and just use the thing. Seems to work 100% OK; certainly did what I needed it to do today. I'll reboot in a couple of weeks or so, probably.
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Replace an exe while it is running, then we talk Or better yet, mail MS on how they should replace running executables.
Same goes for libraries in use by several exe's. Try replacing those, while they execute
charlieg wrote: I guess my perspective was flavored on my most recent video card driver update from NVidea. Their install process messes with my screens (expected) but I did not have to reboot. I consider *any* driver pretty core to the OS.
You wanna pay NVIDIA pricing for every component on your PC?
I can do the same; just TCP/IP communication on the localhost, instead of coupling. That'd be the technical option, instead of downloading crap and claiming it to be an update, just to show some ads and the line that "umpteen devices use Java.", without any real changes. I hate the Java Updater a lot more than Windows Updates that can be explained.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Point taken. I've noticed I have to login to get the update now. I'm not even sure why I bother. It's not like I need the latest update for my 1070 chip in my laptop - 4 years old - and it's not changing. Biggest issue for me is sometimes VMWare Workstation gets wonky at times with driver updates. And VMWare never addresses them.
My point is that when MS wants to roll out updates, we all know a reboot is coming, so we plan for it. If I install VS2019 (which I just did) last week, it did not ask me to reboot my machine. If I update, I do? For that matter, if a VS2019 update includes all sorts of other components, then it should *say* so as a common courtesy.
I'm agreeing with the other poster, I think they just say it to say it.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Replace an exe while it is running, then we talk
Well, it's possible to rename an executable while it is running. This is how our desktop apps get updated...also makes rolling back simple if required.
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
"Hope is contagious"
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Replace an exe while it is running, then we talk
How about the same way everything else does - Close the program, launch another one that re-names the original, then re-launch it.
Imagine you had to reboot your PC any time Steam (Or any of its included games), or Windows Defender definitions or etc. updated. You'd be rebooting half a dozen times a day!
-= Reelix =-
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Reelix wrote: How about the same way everything else does - Close the program, launch another one that re-names the original, then re-launch it.
That works for your application. As I already explained,
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Same goes for libraries in use by several exe's.
So, explain how you update a DLL that is in use by several other applications/services?
Reelix wrote: Imagine you had to reboot your PC any time Steam (Or any of its included games), or Windows Defender definitions or etc. updated. You'd be rebooting half a dozen times a day!
Those don't require a reboot because they don't update a shared resource.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Taking a guess a kernel driver that supports the debugger has been updated, therefore mandating the restart.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Then you realize that it just wants you to restart explorer and you don't actually need to reboot - Like 95% of the stuff that wants you to restart...
I never reboot between VS Updates and it still works fine.
-= Reelix =-
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Epic is giving two games from Daedalic for free this week.
Deponia: The complete journey
and
Ken Follett's The Pillars of the Earth
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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<rant>
Anyone else tired of all the "woke" internal emails and posts with your employer, this group's month and that group's month, wellness contests, mindfulness propaganda, etc.?
What happened to just focusing on getting the job done, getting along with and respecting coworkers, and leaving politics out of the work environment?
I long for the good old days when discussions outside the immediate work focus centered around football teams (American football), baseball, family stuff, or the old pro- or anti-Microsoft arguments. And when it was over, we could all get a beverage of our choice together.
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I work for a small company where everyone is so busy nobody can dream of having the time needed to write such emails.
A company should be focused on what it's trying to sell. You know if you're getting those, someone doesn't have nearly enough to do.
modified 21-Apr-21 16:14pm.
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Yeah, sort of depends on the size of the company and where the roots are. I have no patience for it.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I get none of those (I'm self-employed)
However, I think this has to do with the changing times.
People no longer want to work 9 to 5 to simply provide for their families.
Work is a huge part of your life so it should be "fun".
For example, my previous employer had air balloon flights (which was unfortunately cancelled because of the bad weather), weekends at the beach, hackathons, movie nights and what have you.
They even had a "happiness officer" (in her defense, she was also a recruiter and she recruited me and she was genuinely very nice and fun, seeing her always made everyone happy).
Old farts like yourself and grumps like me (I don't consider myself old yet) prefer the old 9 to 5 mentality, but companies need to do something to get the attention of the new and young talent who expect more from their employer.
Then comes all the wellness and yoga and stuff.
A lot of people are experiencing COVID-related stress.
In the Netherlands, when an employee gets sick, the employer pays for health benefits for up to two years after an employee gets sick, even when no work is done.
To make things worse, simply firing an employee is generally a huge undertaking that will probably cost you lots of money.
As you can imagine, employers are scared shitless for employees getting overworked, depressed and basically anything that would prevent them from doing work while still getting paid.
It's so bad over here that employers aren't even looking to hire anymore and about 13% of the workforce is forced into self-employment (which isn't why I chose this path by the way).
Out of all business owner's, 75% does not have any employees.
This is a huge issue over here that the government is currently tackling by making it less attractive to be self-employed 
So anyway, if an employee gets sick, you better have proof that you, as employer, did everything you could to prevent it... Like wellness, mindfulness, yoga...
It's probably like this in the whole of Europe (maybe a bit "worse" in northern countries, and a bit "less" in eastern countries, I don't know).
I can imagine it's completely different in America, but similar thoughts may play a role.
Especially getting and keeping young talent and especially in IT where good workers are hard to come by.
Let's also not forget that employers also need to adapt to these new times, new trends and now work from home and some of them may be searching for ways to keep their employees happy and involved.
Some do it better than others
I've worked for an "old fashioned" company where the average age was well over 40.
That wasn't a lot of fun either and ultimately I quit and some other young employees did as well and none of the interns stayed either...
I also really don't care about football (soccer), Formula 1, sports in general, family stuff (especially children) and I've heard all the pro- or anti-Microsoft arguments by now 
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Sander - "Woke" is not what you are addressing. Just FYI.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Well, with "woke" I think about being so anti-racist that you're racist again, being anti-male except when you need miners or some such because that's "typically male" and being so vegan that you can't have friends because friends are made of meat and you're against meat.
I mean, basically they're people with great ideas that could help humanity, except they implement it in the extreme which just makes it silly, dumb and unfair.
Even to the point where the people they're trying to "protect" don't agree with them anymore.
That, to me, is "woke", extreme social awareness (and possibly a mental illness or blockade caused by underlying problems like depression, boredom and/or the feeling of uselessness).
However, the post was about wellness and mindfulness, which to me isn't woke, but employee well-being which may also go a bit further than we're used to.
I guess it's "new age" or "spiritual" employee well-being.
So I replied about employee well-being and not about racism, sexism and veganism (although they could also be part of employee well-being).
By the way, did I ever tell you I'm a vegetarian?*
* I really am, and not just because it's hip either, have been for 23 years, which was my own choice when I was 10 years old, but I'm just messing with you by telling you.
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If someone has time to be sending a bunch of emails like that, then it isn't a dev focused dev shop, IMO
I don't like big companies, or rather companies that do more than software development, in part because of the interpersonal politics that comes with it - i find it easier to navigate the less people there are, and also there's a lot of needless churn at companies that do more than development. I see these emails you bring up as part of that. Along with trainings and meetings that have nothing to do with the craft.
I don't think "woke" is really the issue here, at least for me. I'd have, and have had just as big a problem with so called "team builders" that really need to find a hobby instead of coming up with an endless stream of garbage we have to participate in just so they can justify their continued employment.
My $0.02
Real programmers use butterflies
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honey the codewitch wrote: I don't think "woke" is really the issue here, at least for me. I'd have, and have had just as big a problem with so called "team builders" that really need to find a hobby instead of coming up with an endless stream of garbage we have to participate in just so they can justify their continued employment.
Truer words have rarely been spoken. Fire the @#$% drones, and use their salaries (and the budgets that they control) to increase the productive workers' bonuses. I am perfectly competent to find my own leisure activities, and people with which to share them.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote: Fire the @#$% drones, and use their salaries (and the budgets that they control) to increase the productive workers' bonuses. I am perfectly competent to find my own leisure activities, and people with which to share them.
Someone needs to print, frame, and send this to those drones in question. Well said.
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What about sales, management, recruitment, finances...?
I've worked for a company with 200+ developers and probably 30 or 40 other people.
Those other people were simply there to keep the company up and running because you need an accountant, because the techies needed company cars, because they had to get customers, etc.
It's those 40 people who send out those kinds of emails.
Still, definitely dev focused, I'd say.
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I don't like shops where there is more than one person for any of those roles.
200 people is way too many for a dev shop for me to be comfortable.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Where I work, we have one developer, one salesman, one bookkeeper, one manager... And they're all me
I'm thinking of getting a second developer, but I'd have to check with HR (a.k.a. also me).
Rest assured I'll send this new developer weekly updates on employee happiness, yoga classes and the charity I'll donate his salary to
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MSBassSinger wrote: I long for the good old days when discussions outside the immediate work focus ...
Perhaps because your "good old days" are not the only representation (or memory) of what those were?
Before awareness and even sexual harassment laws existed I remember the following.
1. One co-worker that continuously shared extreme racist and misogynistic jokes. It wasn't possible to have a conversation with him without this happening.
2. At another job one male owner of the company was so egregious that he was sued by women four times and lost in court at least two of those. Again keeping in mind that he lost before sexual harassment laws existed.
3. At another job the owner insisted that the managers only hire women with big breasts. Presumably so he could look at them while he was discussing football (which he also did.)
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MSBassSinger wrote: Anyone else tired of all the "woke" internal emails and posts with your employer, this group's month and that group's month, wellness contests, mindfulness propaganda, etc.?
No one ever sent me such an email. Might be my reputation; reply to all is very tempting, specially in the late hours.
60 years ago, we was not woke. And the more our currency slides, the more woke we became.
The woke west needs fresh blood; immigrants, refugees, anything - or the currency collapses. We need an expanding population, and the average western doesn't produce enough. Without an expanding population, the state cannot borrow money at the same rate. So, to be blunt; we importing people because we don't make enough of them, to keep the borrowing going. Is that "woke" enough?
"Equal rights", yes; but not mandatory minimal hires of a color or gender; that's devaluing for the sake of virtue. A virtue that is as valueable as being a virgin. Makes nice headlines, nothing more.
MSBassSinger wrote: work focus centered around football teams (American football), baseball
Never cared about sports, sport.
MSBassSinger wrote: family stuff
Never discussed that at work either; that's private, not business.
MSBassSinger wrote: we could all get a beverage of our choice together.
"As friends"?
Coworkers aren't. They competition according to management.
Once, we worked as a team toward a common goal, for a common interest. Now we work for a manager that declares all employees to be competing.
Those mails are PR. There's no value in them in productive terms, only in how the company is perceived.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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