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The Lidl supermarket chain is making a big splash of openings in my area. I went to one as some of the sales advertised were quite attractive for my food acquisition habits. They are accurately reputed to carry a lot of store-branded items and I saw this coffee, also on sale.
"Lidl Preferred Selection gold coffee" - and, although I've a decent stash of my preferred Latin roast (Cafe Caribe[^]) the combination of curiosity and price got me to buy in (500gm worth).
It's less darkly roasted than the Latin roast and decidedly (and surprisingly) acidic by comparison. As I drink it black, no sugar, I've nothing to tame the acidity*. So here's my question (and other's, aside from Germans, may chime in):
Is this acidic roast characteristic of German coffee roasts or just this particular item?
* Actually, I just threw some star anise and it does what I love it for and takes the edge off of coffee that just has too much bite. Quite nice after that treatment.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I don't know anything much about Cafe Caribe, but the Lidl coffee is a mix of Arabica and Robusta beans - which gives more flavour (and caffeine) but much higher acidity than "pure Arabica".
So if the Cafe Caribe is 100% Arabica then that could account for the bitterness, even if the roast is milder.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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It wasn't part of the purchasing choices but the package only mentions the Arabica.
Something I only found out, by accident, within the last year - the "robusta" beans, mainly from Brazil, are preferred for Espresso (the enhanced acidity, perhaps?). Your explanation, although generally plausible, doesn't fit this case. The coffee source, in general, also makes a difference.
All things being equal, I like Sumatran coffee - very deep and rich. It also goes at a premium, in general, and since I am not any sort of a coffee Mavin (gourmet, but more rational), it's not worth paying triple the price. Especially if I have cookies (biscuits, to you) or halavah handy to go with it and mute any subtleties.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: * Actually, I just threw some star anise and it does what I love it for and takes the edge off of coffee that just has too much bite. Quite nice after that treatment.
Curious, I'll try that,
you use ground star anise or the whole pod (in what quantity, approx) ?
I'd rather be phishing!
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Whole Star Anise (I ground it once - a mistake).
How many depends upon size of cup and personal taste. If there's any "trick" to it, it is to re-use the star anise and not use fresh ones each time.
Star Anise takes quite a while to really soak through to diffuse the flavors into the beverage. It actually gets more potent for the first bunch of uses and then you replace it when it, in your opinion, needs to be replaced. Often an overnight storage in the bottom of your favorite cup (or coffee brewing receptacle) allows this soaking to progress nicely for the morning.
Currently - for this quite acidic coffee: four stars in aprox 450ml cup. Coffee is brewed directly into the cup and I go and get it as soon as I get a chance (after it stops gurgling).
I have used anise seed for the same effect, but in this case mixed with and ground with the coffee prior to brewing. Obviously only one shot so you want to grind that anise seed quite fine. Effect is very similar. Again, all a matter of taste.
For either, too much and it crosses over into a licorice taste - not my goal but everyone's taste varies.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Acidity and caffeine depends somewhat on the beans, but mostly on the roast.
A very dark roast can have a pH of 7.5 while a very light roast can have a pH of 5.5
Light roast can also have up to 4 times as much caffeine than dark roast.
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Looking at this chart[^] (by no means definitive) seems to actually give them about equal weight.
Wikipedia doesn't speak much about the acidity beyond:Quote: Beans from different countries or regions can usually be distinguished by differences in flavor, aroma, body, and acidity.[66] These taste characteristics are dependent not only on the coffee's growing region, but also on genetic subspecies (varietals) and processing. Varietals are generally known by the region in which they are grown, such as Colombian, Java and Kona.
Arabica coffee beans are cultivated mainly in Latin America, eastern Africa or Asia, while robusta beans are grown in central Africa, throughout southeast Asia, and Brazil.
What your said is clearly correct (per the graphic I linked) for a given region's of beans. If you note the dark vs. light Costa Rican beans, both are pretty acid yet roughtly the same whether dark or light. This, then, leads back to the bean's original components and how much of them there are and how they react to slow partial pyrolysis. I learned some things from looking at this (inspired by you) that will save me some trouble (i.e., Costa Rican coffee's not worth it to me).![Java | [Coffee]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/coffee.gif)
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I find that chart hard to decipher, there are to many variables, and I also believe the values are a bit low.
In this chart[^] they're using the same beans at different temperatures and get a much greater variation.
But it's missing another variable, time.
Cheap coffee tends to be roasted at higher temperatures and a shorter time which creates a flatter and more bitter coffee. But the beans lose less weight that way and since they sell per weight...
Chlorogenic acids both decompose and polymerize in the temperature range of 120 - 200C (approx. 250 - 400F) above that they just decompose.
Acidity of the beans themselves is partly genetic of course, Kenya is more sour. While I haven't found any numbers on it, I doubt the difference is great.
It also depends on how fast they grow. High altitude -> slow growth -> more sour.
But also on the method used to part the pits from the flesh. Drying the fruits doesn't change the beans that much. But in countries where it's to humid to dry them, such as in Java, the ferment them instead.
This process removes quite some acidity from the beans while also changing the taste considerably in other ways.
If this sounds interesting I can recommend you try out Sulawesi coffee. Smells like cocoa but tastes like Java
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I've had Sulawesi (sometimes a Starbucks feature, too.).
The most chocolatey smelling coffee I've had was a gift brought to me from Viet Nam. I don't recall the brand but it had a picture of a weasel on it (considered lucky in Viet Nam). Before I used it I looked it up to be sure it wasn't too good a gift: the berries having been eat and shat out by a weasel. That's common in Viet Nam, a less expensive version than the same "process" when a civit cat is the processor instead (can be $200/kilo and up for civit cat version).
It wasn't so processed. Alas, when the aroma's that good the coffee can't help but disappoint by comparison.
What still is left unanswered is my original question: is such acidic coffee the typical roast in Germany; so though because it's the only version offered under the store's name (Lidl) and would thus seem to likely be the most common. On the other hand, it could just be, well, unfortunate. Maybe I should expand - is this a common preference in Europe, or in the more northern parts (I've had Gevalle's coffee roasts and they're pretty sour).
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Well yes.
It's all about your reference point I assume.
The more common "premium" brands in Germany (Dallmayr, Jakobs) tastes really similar to the corresponding Swedish brands. So if you find Gevalia sour you'll find German coffee sour as well.
Coffee tends to go darker the further south you go in Europe, and more lighter brown and sour the further north you go. There seems to be a softish border somewhere around the Alps.
Except for the UK, their coffee is more similar to that greyish diner coffee you drink by the pint on your side of the pond. Luckily there is good coffee to find as well.
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Jörgen Andersson wrote: that greyish diner coffee you drink by the pint on your side of the pond.
Traditional coffee in the US is, indeed, poor. A lighter roast than I like (hence my getting south-American and caribean roasts). It's not totally a "side of the pond thing, even by continent, as Mexico also has a taste for decent coffee.
I've been in the UK long enough to know that they are quite content, in general, to ingest trash. Their primary tea, for example, is from India (already more bitter but nicely aromatic) which they then make much too strong to drink because they plan on debouching it with milk (and possibly a ton of sugar, too). I was both astonished and disappointed in them. At the B&B I was in, I had to have them keep some hot water handy so I could water down their tea to drinkable (note I like my teas strong - just not stupidly so).
The US, in a great many things that were traditionally mediocre at best, is now developing some class. Love it or hate it as a corporation, Starbucks has brought both good coffee and responsible sourcing into the main-stream. The "craft beers" have become so widespread that one can even get quite decently priced IPA's (my choice), Belgian and a host of others in virtually any market.
What's nice is that, as we tend to do, mass-market it to the point of affordability: like Chinese takeout, pizza, and such (remember, I live near NY City), they are very economical foods and taste heavenly. I'll admit that, as you got into the heartland . . . well, you read my comments about the UK's cuisine.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Well, that's a pretty good summary.
Best coffee I've had was i a completely unlikely Café on the roadside in absolutely nowhere in northern Utah.
The contrast couldn't have been bigger. We expected US diner standard, but ended up in a place that roasted their own coffee daily.
Personally I'm not very fond of IPA.
It's to much. It's quantity (of hops) instead of quality. Sometimes admittedly both quantity and quality, but still.
I prefer a proper Bitter Real Ale.
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Here's my current favorite IPA[^]. You'll note I picked a page that's quite critical of it. My best guess is that it's neither expensive enough nor sold in an upscale-enough store to please the snobs. It's bad enough I only drink single-malt (if scotch), and that taste preference was not by choice.
It taste like I had always imagined beer would taste when I was a kid. I was highly disappointed when I actually tasted the swill that mostly passed for beer in the US at that time. Then, quite by accident, I saw a package of "Ballentine India Pale Ale" and got it - and low and behold the promise was at long last kept! Plus, each bottle cap had a rebus puzzle on it - great fun a one's wits are slowly but surely dimmed.
Anyway, I give my favorite one fault: its quite strong, over 8%, and a single 12oz can, as shown, is effectively like drinking two cans of ordinary beer - but who could stop halfway?
Other beers I've liked: Guinness Stout, Gösser Stiftsbräu, Carlsberg Elephant. These latter two I supplied at my after-doctoral-thesis-defense party. One version of Dog Fish Head[^] was great, but I forgot which one - but it was strong.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Jörgen Andersson wrote: Light roast can also have up to 4 times as much caffeine than dark roast.
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A little salt will take the edge off coffee as well. Be careful to not over do it though.
Jack of all trades, master of none, though often times better than master of one.
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I have always added a pinch of table salt to bitter coffee. Will need to try Star Anise for sure.
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Just keep in mind the difference, especially with the first brew on the anise: it takes some time whist salt (sugar, milk, etc.) are immediate.
Curious: what if you put the salt into the water before brewing?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Never tried it.
To be clear, I ONLY drink light roasted coffee. If I am out at a restaurant, someone's home, etc. and they serve me bitter shite coffee, I put a pinch of salt in it, and stir it well; not perfect, but it helps a great deal.
modified 12-Apr-21 20:11pm.
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Actually, I'll keep it in mind - as it does happen and what can you do in a restaurant?
Fortunately, by far the majority of the outside coffee I drink is at my kids' place (only just having it again after a year). They have the same taste as I (not a surprise) so I do OK.
Note: caffeine is very soluble in hot water - comes out of coffee, tea very quickly so even a light brew should give you most of the appropriate side affects (light, within limits, of course).
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Another trick you can try is to just wet the grounds (same temperature as brewing) and let them soak for 30 seconds before continuing with brewing. This allows the release of CO2 from the grounds which is then converted to acid when dissolved in the brewed coffee. I use the pour-over method of brewing, so this is easy to do, but if using a drip coffee maker, it takes more effort.
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Although there may be a small amount of CO2 adsorbed on the coffee granules, it would never be a problem in coffee being brewed with (approximately) boiling water. Like all gasses, it's solubility is decreased with increasing temperature - and by the time water is near boiling it's been long gone. Water is also (temporarily) deoxygenated, too, at that temperature.
The amount of CO2 is pretty trivial to begin with - at least in terms of what you'd taste. In fact, subjective though it may be, the coffee that inspired the original post is more sour than, for example, seltzer. Which is brought up as a further example for you (or science experiment !). Have you noticed opening a war bottle of any carbonated beverage results in a lot of gas coming out of solution and frothing all over the place? The reduced pressure (from even more gas that has left solution) being released allows it to try to find a new equilibrium of dissolved gases for it's temperature and pressure - but COLD it hardly froths at all by comparison. Why not heat up a nice big cup of your favorite carbonated beverage and see how it tastes (even after cooling).
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Picking those types of chimes that, more or less, are never dissonant is clever but it gives me an interesting thought about understanding complexity.
Sometimes, visual complexity can be overwhelming - probably in no small part in that our vision is our most intensive information input method. Converting to audio, although not necessarily giving any explicit understanding of the complexity is an interesting mechanism to impart its depth.
Standardized is some manner, or maybe a few, may make this an interesting tool.
Which, this being CP, begs the question of how code would sound if its structure were represented audibly. Also, the frightening aspect of Q&A so represented - even those chimes can be forced into dissonance.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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