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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Once you've had an offer to leave, you'll never be fully trusted to stay.

This, IMHO, is the only reason why you should never stay if they increase your pay, etc.

They will never trust you again.

They may just take you back to fire you. Nothing like second guessing yourself.

It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food

Never ever do it.

Don't! it never works out well.

I have never personally done it. Watched it fail spectacularly for both employee and employer many many times in many many ways. I have watched this from inside management. From outside management. It all is a train wreck.

Usually goes something like this.
HR/Management - "John" is leaving he knows the sh*t we need to keep John around to find out what he knows. Offer him anything to stay.
Management - OK John you get 2x your salary before to stay and all the vacation you could ever want, we just came to understand how much you mean to our world and we cannot live without you.
John - OK
Management to HR - Quietly find someone who can learn from John and be John's apprentice/whipping boy.
HR -ok
Management - Hey John since you are so busy we got you this great kid who you can order around to do anything you want them too.
John - OK!
Management to Kid - Learn everything and you get a 2x raise.
Kid - OK!
6months to a year later
Management and HR - Sorry John but your services are no longer needed. Good bye!
John - huh?????

To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer

IMHO, software engineers are not motivated by money as much as they are by intellectual curiosity and the desire to continuously learn new things.

There has to be other reasons why you wish to leave your current employment.

For me counter offers would never motivate me to stay.

Every time, I made a move to leave a company it was based on convenience to my lifestyle at the time -- when commuting to work was a real thing and remote work didn't exist. For example, I gave up my first 90 minute car ride each way for a 15-20 minute one. The second time, I gave up a 100 mile round trip for a 12 mile round trip. It wasn't about the pay so much as the inconvenience to living a well-balanced life.

Java | [Coffee]

~d~

So if they countered by allowing you to work remotely would you have stayed?

Other non financial reasons may be broken internal processes that never get fixed / company culture until the company sees that it will cost them if they don't.

unfortunately back then it wasn't a thing; besides my work involves interfacing with hardware and you can't test that remotely. i suppose if it was a few days a week, i would have never left the place. i am very leery of working remotely, because there may come a time when they want in person meetings and i'm betting they won't pay the cost of traveling long distances, hotel rooms, airfare, etc. i always like being around my colleagues, working in the same area, being able to walk up and talk out a problem on the whiteboard, get help in the lab testing, etc. you can't replace that sort of stuff. i suppose if you are creating web pages and databases that sort of thing, it would be ok.
Java | [Coffee]

~d~

I've had three occasions where resigning brought counter offers:

1. I was working for a boss who hated me because I had shown up his incompetence a couple of times. I got an offer from another company giving me effectively a 50% raise in income (including the value of new benefits). Once I put in my resignation, my boss's boss brought me to his office and made a counter offer to increase my salary by 4%. For some reason he was surprised and disappointed when I turned it down. The next day he brought in his boss and they offered me a 20% raise and a double promotion (there were dozens of seniority levels so this wasn't really important) - which they said was the best they could do because of union restrictions as I didn't have an engineering degree (I had a PhD in CS but that didn't count apparently). I left, they had to hire three people to take over my job - so that cost them almost triple my salary - they could have doubled it and saved money - I might have stayed - it was a fun job except for the mad boss. He was fired three months later after another key programmer quit, citing him as the reason.

2. The next job after the one above paid me quite well but was an insurance company and was very restrictive in their procedures and actively discouraged thinking (inside or outside the box). I decided to go contracting and resigned - they immediately offered me a promotion to a management level and, again, a 50% pay raise, to stay. I didn't, the threat of being management overrode the generous money offer big time. Note: My first contract paid more than double what I would have got if I had stayed and was much more interesting and challenging.

3. After being a contractor for a few years I got a really interesting position and got renewed for three years. At that point the unions said "no more contractors" and I could not be renewed again so they offered me a permanent job, then a higher paid one, then another higher paid one. This latter would be enough money but the hierarchical level meant I would be working for someone who had effectively been working for me and I had previously been asking for her to be replaced because of her bad attitude. Also the level was such that I was pre-maxed out on incremental raises for three years before I could get another promotion. I left and actually went to a permanent job in Germany which started off as a contracting job and was changed to permanent before I started - this was one of my favourite jobs.

- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.

In general - no, unless you're in a situation where you know there will be counter offers. The reason is that by the time you're ready to leave for another job you've already emotionally left the company.

Not me, but my son - he grew to dislike the area where he lived (NW Minnesota) and the project he was on, salary wasn't really an issue. He found a job at a new startup in Central MN (lakes & trees instead of tundra) at a nice hike in pay. When he turned in his notice his boss asked him to meet with mgmt the next morning to discuss keeping him. He agreed.

Then he called me (apparently a fount of wisdom is his opinion). I told him it was risky to stay on since his loyalty could be in doubt if times got tough. The new company was a new startup and only had a single customer but was working on a second. So going there was a risk too. I told him he was young and had lots of time to recover financially should the new company go under and finding a replacement would probably not be much of an issue for him. I also told him for the meeting to first think about what he thought their offer might be and to think about what it would take to stay. I said salary wasn't the issue so don't dwell too much on that aspect. But to just be ready to counter or politely reject theirs. Burning bridges is not usually a good way to go, the world is smaller than you think.

He called again after the meeting. He said there was the offer he thought they would make, the offer he would counter with and then there was the offer they actually made. He would be off the project he disliked, moving and working remote 100% of the time was not an issue and a fairly significant pay hike to boot. After talking to his wife he decided to stay and he's been pretty happy so far for the last 4 of 5 years.

So, it can work out. But, my advice still stands. It can be rather risky to stay. And if the move doesn't work out the next thing quite possibly could - especially when you're younger as he was. You can usually weather a seemingly bad financial hiccup easier than you may think in our line of work.

Once I accepted a counter-offer. How it worked out depends on your POV.

My problem was management -- company hired a middle manager who sucked up to anyone she thought would benefit her and was abusive to anyone below her in the hierarchy. Client loved her so management accepted it (until a year later when her actions were precipitating a lawsuit).

I accepted the counter-offer but resigned 6 months later (going to a 3rd company), as nothing had been fixed, only painted a different color. From that POV, it was a waste of time.

OTOH, my employer bumped me 10% in the counter-offer and 6 months later my new employer bumped me another 15% ... so from that POV? I'd love to do it every year!

Oddly enough, a co-worker went to my first choice. Within a month he complained to me about management problems, benefits changing weekly, etc. That company was defunct 3 years later. In the long term, things worked out well for me, but I can't claim it was part of my grand plan for world domination. The Force was with me during that time.

I see 2 options:

1) Take the money and see if anything changes. Give it 6 months and the re-evaluate.

2) If you are resigning, chances are the reasons won't change. If you think the new company is a really good offer (not just money but management, environment, etc), jump ship. If the offer is not that great, see #1.

If you have resigned and not talked to your employer before hand, then you need to think about why you are leaving. If it's for the money then you'll achieve your goal and save everyone a big hassle by leaving.

If you talked to them, asked for a raise, they said no, then you quit and then they offer a raise then leave. That's not cool. They can either afford to lose you or they can't. They shouldn't play games (to be fair circumstances can change, but there'd have to be a good story)

cheers
Chris Maunder

Earlier today, I saw a bumper sticker that said "I'm a veterinarian therefore I can drive like an animal".

Suddenly I realized how many proctologists are on the roads...

The less you need, the more you have.

JaxCoder.com

There are tons of them out there! Anyone who drives faster than me is a maniac, and anyone who drives slower needs to get the pickle out! Laugh | :laugh:

But one thing I gradually noticed is that anyone who has stuff hanging from the rear-view mirror--rosary beads, dreamcatchers, fuzzy dice, little scented cardboard pine trees--drives like an idiot. The correlation is shockingly high.

Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.

Quite a few gynecologists, as well.

And psychiatrists.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.

Mike Hankey wrote:
"I'm a veterinarian therefore I can drive like an animal".

I'm probably being too literal (as always) because I find that analogy to be a big fail. What animals "drive"? You might be able to train an unusually gifted monkey, but even then the results would probably be even more disappointing than what you get with self-driving cars.

But then, the punchline made it worth overlooking.

Well, our transition to the cloud has resulted in diminished access.

Before we moved to the cloud, we could still connect to our outward facing database servers via ssms using basically read-only accounts. we could inspect tables/views and even look at stored procs, but we didn't have execute permissions.

On our cloud servers, that read-only account has been removed, which everyone thought was fine. Until today.

A problem came up, and when the customer asked us about it, we had to tell him that he had to talk to the DBAs because the devs could no longer inspect those databases...

The word "shitstorm" is being bandied about as a description of what's been happening since i sent that email. In that email, I also happened to mention that I warned this would happen, and was told by the PM that "we'd cross that bridge when we came to it".

Here we are, and the bridge is nowhere to be seen, and I am NOT stepping in that fast-moving stream of sewage that I see flowing by.

"Shitstorm" indeed.

".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013

You missed your calling - Director of Public Relations.

Laugh | :laugh:

I don't just ping people - when I'm done, they ring like a freakin bell... Smile | :)

".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013

ok, I freaking LOVE this!

To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer

Director of Public Retaliations

Nothing succeeds like a budgie without teeth.

I'll be printing this and place it up my office door.

GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X

#realJSOP wrote:
A problem came up, and when the customer asked us about it, we had to tell him that he had to talk to the DBAs because the devs could no longer inspect those databases...

The word "shitstorm" is being bandied about as a description of what's been happening since i sent that email. In that email, I also happened to mention that I warned this would happen, and was told by the PM that "we'd cross that bridge when we came to it".

I suppose the PM is going to love you from now on Roll eyes | :rolleyes:

M.D.V.

If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.

#realJSOP wrote:
...I also happened to mention that I warned this would happen...

Nelek wrote:
I suppose the PM is going to love you from now on

Yes, I've also found that people love, love, love it when you give them an "I told you so!" Roll eyes | :rolleyes:

Most of the time they stop talking to me when I do it and I take that as a compliment and a reward. Laugh | :laugh:

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