|
I didn't see a lot of change in my developer field (embedded design/programming). Things seemed to change rather slowly for me. For the last 20+ years of my career it was programming in C/C++. I might have to learn some minor difference in the RTOSes I'm using but other than that it's C/C++ coding. Tool wise, there really wasn't much of a difference between the IDE's I used. I did have to learn new algorithms. Mostly DSP related (filters, tone generation/detection, etc). It was fun to step into DSP programming (after the age of 50!).
|
|
|
|
|
Yeah, look, if I was at Chevron doing PL/X and COBOL, I am sure not much would have changed.
But admittedly, I wanted to write software for people/companies.
And then on the internet side, software as a service (ASP back in the day, and NOT web pages).
I have a friend who worked on the Kernal for Solaris. And is working in debugging for the big Storage Companies. Still doing the same stuff (Heavy C/ASM/Memory dumps... Reading through a core dump like it's a story).
There are jobs out there that don't change constantly, which is good. They are NOT usually customer driven solutions!
|
|
|
|
|
Heh, there's a ton of different types of projects I've worked on over the years in the 'embedded' field. It's just the development part that hasn't changed much. The biggest change was the switch from doing assembly coding to doing C coding.
|
|
|
|
|
As an "older Programmer" 40+ years experience in hardware and software, my experience shows it depends on who you are dealing with. I left the corporate world and startups years ago, been consulting since. Most of my clients do not understand the cost of building a product, hence they want to hire you on the cheap, which I refuse to do. If you want my years of experience than you have to pay the price.
I can't tell you how many projects I have rescued or fixed because the "newbie's totally screwed it up or the budget/expectations were unrealistic.
The H1B visas are not helping things here for American programmers. I only take jobs now from people I can work with that cooperate to get to the finish line, so I pass up many deals that look good on paper but are just a headache in the long run.
The key factor here is to make it work for the client, they are all results oriented and don't want to hear 'I wish I did this differently'or 'I'll fix it in the next release' They can't budget your time on this, so understanding the monetary and marketing constraints they are under goes along way to keeping employed. there is plenty of work, you just have to search it out. We need to get back to apprenticing the young programmers. Only actual experience will make them better.
Ken
|
|
|
|
|
"Quote: I have worked with people of all ages who were useless
"
Applies to people at all levels of the organization as well.
|
|
|
|
|
I'm 50 plus and have so much trouble to tie my shoes that I never even tried it. Worse: the thought never even crosses my mind. Instead, I tie my shoe laces. And usually on both sides, so not just for one shoe.
|
|
|
|
|
On the other hand, having a good memory can be a curse: there are good and bad memories.
Fact: people usually focus on the last bad memory, not all the good ones previous.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
|
|
|
|
|
OG wrote: the ones that can code are generally those that are still in the industry after 30 years
Yes, though I'd say that if they're still coding after even 10 years, they either enjoy it--which probably means they're good at it--or they're so hopeless that they can't even be shunted into another role, like scrum master, manager, or marketer. It should be easy to figure out which of these is the case.
|
|
|
|
|
Although the younger ones aren't as experienced they no only work cheaper but are willing to work longer to make up for lack of experience. Only problem is once they do get the experience they move on to greener pastures.
|
|
|
|
|
So thats the reason for this?
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm 67 and got my current contract when I was 61 - I've always kept up with the latest tech and I can hold my own with most people - as JSOP once said I'm old I know stuff 
"I didn't mention the bats - he'd see them soon enough" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
|
|
|
|
|
I could have written that myself. Over the last 4 years I managed a transition from a desktop programmer to an ASP.NET programmer and made my employers happy. But people look at me and assume I'm over the hill.
Recursion is for programmers who haven't blown enough stacks yet.
|
|
|
|
|
I sold my first program as a student December 1971. 50 years later I'm still coding and I enjoy it. My official title is IT Manager but I leave the managing to ambitious youngsters while I code, tweak and refactor. Last year I switched from VB .Net to C# and now I'm starting to learn Python.
I've never regretted this path and given the option I would do it again. Knuth wrote about the "Art of Computer Programming" and art it is. Every day I discover new things and enjoy the beauty I find in this art.
|
|
|
|
|
I would say it depends.
I also would put my ability to get work done and out the door up against anyone! and I mean anyone. I have frequently at past 40 age (52) coded 2 or 3, 20year olds into the ground. I might appear to go slower but at the end of the work day I get far more done. Just because I know that taking my time and checking my work is better than lots of effort with no reward. Abe Lincoln quote. If I am given a whole day to cut down a tree. I am going to spend 6 hours sharpening my axe.
Also, Last year this time I lost my job. I got multiple job offers during the year and beat out lots of younger people for jobs just because I knew my stuff and also, I was very willing to admit when I didn't know my stuff.
Sometimes people are posting for Junior or early mid and they really want the senior. But they want to pay for Junior. All you have to do is sell them on what you deliver for them. I in all truth can say that I am always replaced with 2-3 people when I move on from a position. 2-3 Juniors at 60k are the same or more than 1 senior at 120k. I am worth it. Trust me.
I also cannot state this strongly enough. You have to demonstrate that you will be a team player. And not just with the other IT people but a team player for the whole company. You have to be willing to work with anyone at anytime. You cannot be a prima donna.
I think that about covers it.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: I have frequently at past 40 age (52) coded 2 or 3, 20year olds into the ground.
That's not the question. The question is: would the 52 years old you code into the ground the 30 years old you?
Mircea
|
|
|
|
|
quite possibly. I remember working as a 28 year old with a guy who was 50 something. I learned so much from Ron. and he got his crap done and then went home. and I was still struggling. So yes I believe an experienced 50 year old could be 30 year old Rod.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
|
|
|
|
|
Good for you in this case!
In my case, at a point I realized the 30 years old me would run circles around the 60 years old me. I was working for a very good guy/company so I thought I cannot in good conscience ask for a raise. Also, other things outside my work became very important and I decided to draw a line.
Each one has a different path but I still believe age is a difficult obstacle to overcome for professional programmers.
Mircea
|
|
|
|
|
It might be true when it comes to standard work, but then you run into an unexpected design issue.
Seems to happen every day with my current contract. The younger developers are grinding through their tasks, and I am taking a bit longer. But then they come across an application using some technology new to them, such as writing an installer in WIX, and get stuck in how to proceed. They know that they can ask me for my help and experience, especially as I have worked with installer tech and WIX for over 10 years.
This is where we older developers shine - we have that experience with many different technologies if we took the time over the years to keep learning.
I should also mention that while these younger developers are whipping through their work, I am taking the time to understand the context of the code I am working on, cleaning up stranded code, searching for security vulnerabilities in outdated packages, and other similar cleanup work. I like to leave a project in better shape than when I found it....
|
|
|
|
|
As I said, we all have different paths and, for sure, different brains so I'm not going to argue too much.
Quote: This is where we older developers shine - we have that experience with many different technologies if we took the time over the years to keep learning.
Agreed. We can be very useful to help the younger ones but what I was talking about was coding.
Don't know about others, but me, when I look at code I wrote when I was 30-35 years old, I'm in awe how nice and clean it is; tight, everything fits, no loose ends. I long for the time when I would go through a 300 pages API in an afternoon and then know it. Not just knowing that something exists but actually knowing the API calls and parameters and all. Those were the good days and I feel grateful I had the chance to enjoy them.
I just feel that now it's the time to move aside and eventually try to pass some of that experience to those who come behind.
Thos who can, do. Those who cannot, teach. Those who cannot do and cannot teach, manage.
Mircea
|
|
|
|
|
Younger people are more likely to work 80+ hours a week and only expect to be paid for 40.
|
|
|
|
|
They compensate experience with resiliency
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
|
|
|
|
|
The youngsters may spend a day fixing a bug and write a couple hundred lines of code. An experienced developer will spend the time and fix the one line, and remove 50 lines of dead code, leaving things better than they were.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."
|
|
|
|
|
Older developers have wives and lives, and aren't as willing to work 60+ hour weeks.
Older developers are a lot more skilled, and demand higher salaries.
Older developers typically have lower tolerance for corporate absurdity.
Older developers are less receptive to "change for the sake of change", and would rather wring every last drop of usefulness out of "legacy" APIs than inject new untested code into the main project branch.
Older developers are often viewed as rude and opinionated, when in fact, they're just being pragmatic. Most managers can't even spell "pragmatic".
So yeah, it's harder for older developers to find work.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
|
|
|
|
|
 to all your points
"I didn't mention the bats - he'd see them soon enough" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
|
|
|
|
General 
News 
Suggestion 
Question 
Bug 
Answer 
Joke 
Praise 
Rant 
Admin 
Submit an article or tip
