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I mainly agree with you, but there are people that makes you think like Eddy.
I think that the one that doesn't want to teach is bad, but the one that doesn't want to learn is even worse.
Do you know what "team" means in many german places?
Toll ein anderer macht's => Nice, someone else will do it.
I was trainer / mentor in a previous job. I had trained 6 newbies and had to train to 2 more experienced at project take overs.
Only 3 of the newbies earned my respect and the 2 experienced ones... well I had to retrain me very hard to not call them some things I thought. One of those calls during my holidays I told in the weekly poll was due to one of the experienced that took over my project, my customer called my boss and my boss asked me to do remote support (and no, I didn't do it to help my successor, I did it to help my previous customer because I liked them).
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Yeah, I agree there are those. I despise incompetence. I think Eddy clearly does, too. But - and maybe I read too much into that initial comment - it seemed to go further than just that:
To *assume your team is that by default*, I have to ask myself several things.
1. How does this person get along with others, if they're already coming on to a team assuming everyone else is incompetent (in the way that you mentioned)?
2. What does it say about what he thinks of the company who would assemble such a (in his estimation) dodgy development team?
3. A lot of bad coders, and a lot of green coders (not the same thing, but sometimes share behaviors) have huge egos and very little practical skill (even if they have talent), making them impossible to *teach* and to advance. That's not always the case that a person with a bad attitude toward a team is incorrigible, but it's a red flag. Also, just because someone starts out this way doesn't mean they stay that way. They may have been a superstar in college, but haven't yet failed in the real world enough to gain the requisite character - those ones are teachable - eventually, but you have to invest in them.
I can relate to you regarding training others. It's a pain, but most of the time I look at a failure to teach as my own failing, which causes me to pick my students carefully or suffer the self esteem hit of failing at teaching too often for me to be comfortable. If I want to teach people in general, I'll write an article. 
And if that's what Eddy is getting at, I can relate. But I think in my experience at least, while there are a large variety of developers, ones who absolutely cannot be taught are a minority**.
** I'm excluding the washouts here. In the dotcom days here in the US we had a glut of sudden "software developers" who didn't used to be software developers. They came from all walks of life. I - a homeless high school dropout with no other marketable skills to speak of - was one of them so I'm not judging. But a lot of people didn't last. I'm not including those people in my above estimation. I'm talking about developers - and including anyone (even myself) who didn't wash out.
Real programmers use butterflies
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honey the codewitch wrote: I despise incompetence. I think Eddy clearly does, too.
I dislike people who fake it. Anyone seriously trying will have my support. We had people from university that can't write a line of code.
All you need is to want. I have no degrees at all. None.
honey the codewitch wrote: How does this person get along with others, if they're already coming on to a team assuming everyone else is incompetent (in the way that you mentioned)?
I'm an employee, not getting paid to get along. And why would you hire those?
honey the codewitch wrote: 2. What does it say about what he thinks of the company
I'm paid. I think about Rimworld and Oxygen not Included, not the company.
honey the codewitch wrote: A lot of bad coders, and a lot of green coders (not the same thing, but sometimes share behaviors) have huge egos and very little practical skill (even if they have talent), making them impossible to *teach* and to advance.
If not willing to learn, at any age, you no longer fit for this field. Not much vacancies for someone stuck in VB4.
honey the codewitch wrote: And if that's what Eddy is getting at, I can relate. But I think in my experience at least, while there are a large variety of developers, ones who absolutely cannot be taught are a minority**.
I was only saying I not responsible for the knowledge of my team members. Knowlegde they can get here free if they want it; as a co worker, I not morally allowed to force it onto them.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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honey the codewitch wrote: A) So lowly of their teammates
Try "realistic"; I had some great teammates, and some lesser ones. Even had a boss that had a name in this field and challenged him. We eat from the same profit. If the boss a weak link, I will point that out. It's in the interest of all that eat from it.
honey the codewitch wrote: B) Has no interest and feels no responsibility for the team he is a part of
I write code, don't do management. I have no interest, nor any responsibility for others. I write code; you want me to socialize? If I did, you gonna complain I'm not writing code and making money for you.
honey the codewitch wrote: Would not last long under me
Your patience isn't mine. Of all people, you should know, we're not hired for being people-people. And then you attack me on that?
I would never hurt the team, never abandon them; we work toward the same goal. But I'm not going to "educate" them, thats too much arrogance, even for me. I don't have the need, nor the right. Only PHB's think that they have that right.
honey the codewitch wrote: All the technical talent in the world (even if they have it, or more of the case, they only *think* they have it) doesn't make up for someone that can't work for the benefit of the team and as a result, the project.
Even people without talent can contribute.
Here, we disagree; I'm part of the team, not the one responsible.
I helped some coworkers financially; the more profit for our company, the more we get paid, everyone happy. So, yes; I lift teammates for my own profit. But sharing knowledge? No. Only on CodeProject which is freely accesible. Their choice if they want to learn. Not forcing anyone. If you as a manager want to, enroll them in education instead of making me responsible. I no teacher, and proven that.
honey the codewitch wrote: That's just how I roll and I've been satisfied with the teams I've run as a result.
I usually like the way you roll, would be great neighbours. We'd never be on a "team", we'd be too busy arguing at the coffeemachine to be productive.
You wanna share knowledge? Dump all your companies code.
Ah, you won't, because knowledge is money, innit?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Actually I've been encouraged to knowledge dump my biggest client's code onto this site.
I just haven't yet because I haven't had the time.
Mind you it's not exactly the same situation, because my primary deliverable is hardware, not software. That's where the money is for us.
Anyway, that's where I am ideally.
And as far as knowledge being proprietary? My personal opinion is that knowledge frees itself over a long enough timeline - we can only get in the way of that. I do my part not to try to get in the way of that. The boundaries on what I share are set by my clients, not me.
As far as the rest of your comment, having elaborated your point, I don't have much to argue with. My initial read was different than my takeaway having read your response.
Yes some team members are crap. Sometimes. I read your comment as suggesting that was the norm that team members were crap, which is what inspired my initial response.
Real programmers use butterflies
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honey the codewitch wrote: Actually I've been encouraged to knowledge dump my biggest client's code onto this site.
Most companies not going to share "IP".
honey the codewitch wrote: Anyway, that's where I am ideally.
Ideally? Ideally I'd have invested in MS and IBM years ago.
honey the codewitch wrote: And as far as knowledge being proprietary? My personal opinion is that knowledge frees itself over a long enough timeline - we can only get in the way of that.
You're a dreamer. We have patents to prevent just that. I wish you were a doctor, because COVID going to be expensive.
honey the codewitch wrote: The boundaries on what I share are set by my clients, not me.
Welcome to reality.
honey the codewitch wrote: As far as the rest of your comment, having elaborated your point, I don't have much to argue with. My initial read was different than my takeaway having read your response.
I like arguing with you, because I learn. My choice. Can't force that choice on team mates.
honey the codewitch wrote: Yes some team members are crap. Sometimes. I read your comment as suggesting that was the norm that team members were crap, which is what inspired my initial response.
"Some" are, and they usually don't last long under a good manager.
Teams; together we know more than individually. Together, ape strong. As a group we can go where individuals cannot.
..but I cannot teach my equals.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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I can see not wanting to do it for "free". You have tasks to finish. Unless training others is one of them, your manager should know about it unless it won't interfere with your schedule. It can then be scheduled, and you can get credit for it. Being on a team doesn't mean that you owe everyone charity.
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Greg Utas wrote: Unless training others is one of them
I'm not fit to teach, tried it. Long story short, I became angry with my students for writing down my words when just thinking out loud.
Greg Utas wrote: Being on a team doesn't mean that you owe everyone charity.
It's not charity; if the company and the team succeeds, more money for all.
..but why give away to all what got me hired? That's a wish of a company owner to maximize profit, without regard for the employee.
Each of us learns as they want, knowledge is freely available.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy wote: It's not charity; if the company and the team succeeds, more money for all.
True, as long as you don't get fired for taking on something that caused everyone to be late.
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Greg Utas wrote: for taking on something that caused everyone to be late
Never at the expense of others.
We work for the same piece of bread. Our result determines the size of the bread.
Some teams don't understand that basic idea; in which case, I eliminate the weed. If you all in a boat, you float or sink together.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Your attitude implies that you are not the team lead developer or even the senior developer.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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Did I misspell employee? Where? And do carry the title for some years.
No Mycroft. Just no. Yuch.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Except they can't be removed from the team as there would be a gap in skills and knowledge which you can't have right now as it would slow down the project, which is exactly why these people don't share: job security 
Seen it happen and removed myself from the team instead.
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Contrawise, I've had jobs where I was reprimanded for using advanced concepts (i.e. actually using the latest C++ standard which they stated as part of the job requirement.) I was once chastised for using a predicate with a std::map.
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My favourite part of the job is passing on knowledge and watching people grow, having been doing it for almost 30 years I guess I have acquired some degree of experience to share (whether some people want me to or not )
I have been doing this long enough that several people I helped mentor have gone on to 'better' things sometimes at the same company sometimes elsewhere.
Which is fine by me, those better things often involve managing people, which I have never had any interest in doing.
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It's different if they are refusing to share as opposed to not having been asked.
The former is no good; the latter is a problem on the community, not on the developer.
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True, to a point, but not always. I agree with you that under many circumstances it’s best to help those around you. A rising tide raises all ships.
There was a time, (29, 25 years ago) I aspired to be a ‘vast store of information’ - to have an answer for most questions. Over time my co-workers found it more expedient to ask me instead of learning/remembering for themselves. It became too burdensome.
Consider also the co-worker that asks, and is answered, only to ask again, the same question, days weeks or months later.
Lastly, consider that sometimes the direct, efficacious answer may involve considerations and complexities greater than the co-worker’s level of expertise with that platform. So answering may open a path to more problems.
So, if you’re cranky because someone isn’t helping you, perhaps you should ask why they’re not being helpful. If they’re truly an information hoarder whose habit is to disadvantage others as opposed to helping the group effort, then they’ll not get far in life.
Good luck!
Time is the differentiation of eternity devised by man to measure the passage of human events.
- Manly P. Hall
Mark
Just another cog in the wheel
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There was no particular incident that triggered this post. I'm just passing along advice based on my 30 years on the industry.
More than ever, teams need to be cohesive and supportive units in which the stronger senior developers mentor junior developers. Anyone who will not share knowledge that will benefit the team and/or the project is a detriment. Try to change their behavior first, but if they refuse to change then, in the long run, the team is better off without that coder.
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<rant> I don't know about you, but I have a lot more trouble finding anyone that wants to even know my unique knowledge and skillset, which unfortunately leaves me pigeonholed for some things, despite my role having grown beyond it. I'd be more than happy to share so that I could take a full-time position on program that didn't leave me still helping with those items. When I ask management to make sure that the next person they hire have the ability or desire to learn these skills to backfill me, they put it at low priority and hire someone without the desire or skills. I'd like the rest of the team to be team players too.
/rant
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it's actually my biggest gripe, in not only development but anything technical, we don't need primadonnas on the team. we need people who show their support by volunteering information, not hording it.
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If a pet rock has a receding hairline is it a little boulder?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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if you flip it over is it now beard?
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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That's no pet rock; it's a baby troll!
And here comes its mama... 
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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We need to get to the root of the problem; and for that, we must not show any sedimental leanings in our views, to wit:
How often do you find those hairy rocks in Wales, anyway - and are you sure they're not dried sheep?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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