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The same idiot who thought changing a button to different colored text you need to hover over to see it's clickable (Windows 8). I'm not sure they were thinking. . .
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Since we don't seem to have a hardware forum, I'll ask this here, for those in DIY electronics.
Exactly how good is USB for providing power to a device? I specifically mean devices that are not attached to a computer and use the USB cable strictly for power.
I've long felt that we need a standardized low-voltage DC power source coming right out of our walls, much in the manner that we currently have 120V (or 220V) AC coming out of our walls -- to eliminate the need of all those "brick" power adapters cluttering our power strips. The last time I discussed this publicly (about 10+ years ago), I was scoffed, with the reason being every device uses a different voltage. (I rejected that, as AC devices were able to adapt to use 110V, so DC devices could adapt to use the standardized voltage).
The real problem was that every device used it's own plug size (and selling the proprietary adapter was a profit center). However, now there's some movement to power things with USB cables.
So, the question for the electrically minded here: If all you had available to power your device was an USB cable, would that be viable?
Truth,
James
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For basically anything but a power amplifier or kitchen appliances, yes.
Latest versions of USB-C with Power Delivery can move up 100W and is used for powering laptops nowadays.
Here[^] are some ICs if you want to play around with it.
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I have USB ports on my keyboard (lame) and ones on the computer (better). And some on power bars / chargers (best).
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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I don't think USB ports on the keyboard is lame. In the early days of USB, I loved it, for a few reasons: Computers had too few ports, so when you got yourself a USB mouse, and a USB card reader residing on your desk, plugging them in "locally" was great. If you must run separate cables for both keyboard, mouse, card reader, scanner, printer ... all the way to your PC, your mouse has seriously limited freedom of movement, and you have enough cable spaghetti that all you need for an Italian meal is the carbonara sauce... In those days, PCs made noise - my early tower PCs resided in a noise chamber, and getting at any of the ports were a hassle. So when I made a PC corner in my living room, I drilled a hole through the wall for the cables and put the PC itself in the neighboring room. To plug in another USB device in the computer (directly), I must leave the room.
Nowadays, I have a wireless keyboard and mouse (with full freedom of movement), so the "local" USB ports are in my screen: That is where I plug in the keyboard/mouse dongle, but most of all: where I plug in the memory sticks and the 'passport style' portable USB disks. I plug in my smartphone there, both for charging and for transferring photos to the PC. Sometimes I even plug in my full blown SLR or video camera for transferring a handful of photos or a couple clips to the PC, but my current screen only supports USB 2.x, so for lengthy videos or scores of hi-res photos, I take the bother to go to the computer and read them through a USB 3.x port.
If I still were on a cabled keyboard, and my previous screen that didn't have USB ports, I would be very happy to be able to plug in memory sticks into the keyboard, and to have mouse and keyboard connected to the PC with a single cable.
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Mine are "lame" because, in my case, they were under-powered.
I think my (MS white) KB is at least 10+ years old ... it has things like: "My Computer", Calculator, Sleep, Mail, Volume, web navigation, media navigation, on and on.
YMMV.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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Are we not there already?
I power devices from USB A sockets in my car (in my old car, I had a cigarette lighter adapter with three sockets). My last two cellular phones came with AC adapters with USB A connectors (and the last one of those I bought early 2016, the one before that must have been about ten years ago). I recently bought a charger adapter with three high-power USB 3 A sockets and a USB C socket (I bought it together with my keyboard because I thought I needed the adapter for charging the keyboard, without knowing that the keyboard would come with an A-to-C cable - but it is nice to have a high power 75 Watt charging unit in any case.) Neither of these have any hub functionality; they are all plain chargers.
For low-power devices, USB has been The charging standard for years. The power supply may have A or C sockets, but it seems like A will be the universal one for many years to come.
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James Curran wrote: I've long felt that we need a standardized low-voltage DC power source coming right out of our walls, much in the manner that we currently have 120V (or 220V) AC coming out of our walls -- to eliminate the need of all those "brick" power adapters cluttering our power strips.
The Three Gorges Dam in China have DC transmission lines that transport power to homes, businesses, and such. There's even a (short) HVDC line going from Pennsylvania to Long Island. Historically I think it's been a matter of AC's efficiency over long distance.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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David Crow wrote: Historically I think it's been a matter of AC's efficiency over long distance.
I still see it coming into the house as high-voltage AC, with the longest run of DC being 10-20 feet within the house. The conversion would be done in the wall socket, so instead of two 110V outlets, it could have one 110V and two or four USB outlets.
Truth,
James
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James Curran wrote: ...instead of two 110V outlets, it could have one 110V and two or four USB outlets.
Not sure if this is what you are talking about, but I have several scattered around my house and shop.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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Yes, exactly that. We have all the parts in place. We just need to convince people(*) to start using 'em.
(*) "people" being inventors designing new products that could use low voltage, and homebuilders, to put outlets like that in homes originally.
Truth,
James
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What's the problem?
My plan (currently being built) is to give my home a 12VC spine along the middle wall, with ribs to both sides, with fixed cables to all room lights. For plug-in consumers I standardize on BNC connectors, cables with BNC in one end, whatever in the other end. It will mostly be plugs with standard 5.5 mm outer diameter add 2.5 mm inner diameter, but I have a couple devices wanting 2.1 mm diameter, so they need another cable.
I am installing 3-pin BNC sockets in my power rails, having 'declared' that the left connector supplies 12VDC, the right one supplies 5VDC. For now, all my 5VDC consumers use USB charging, from a hub supplied by 12VDC (unless supplied by the 75W AC based charger). I am not certain that I will ever provide any advanced 5VDC supply though my spine/rib network, even if the cabling is there.
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AC-DC arguments are as old as the Edison-Tesla wars ...
Today (but at most for a couple decades) we have had DC-DC voltage converters with losses at a level that make them viable for general use. They are used in specific application, such as adapting the voltage from the PC power supply to that required by the RAM chips, but at the current, we do not have units converting from, say, a 750 VDC inlet to the house, to the 12 VDC expected by your tabletop radio, your USB hub or external PC disk.
For long-haul high-power lines, e.g. between Norway and Denmark or England, DC is the rule nowadays. But at the home level, it is still far easier to use traditional (or somewhat untraditional switching technologies) to transform household AC to whatever low-volt DC you need there and then.
Don't forget that required cable dimension is a direct function of the current, not the voltage. If you replace a 240V supply (regardless of whether it is AC or DC) with at 12V one, the current increases by a factor of 20, and you have to dimension you cables 20-fold! You will never get a 12 VDC power supply from you power company - that will be the day they come to install a railroad rail as the power connector to your house!
20-doubling cable capacity can only be done in short stretches. Like what I am now currently building in my home: I will have a 'spine' along the middle wall, both in the basement, first and second floors, with 'ribs' to the power consumers. The spines will be 6 sqmm conductors (I considered going down to 4 sqmm, but decided I didn't want the voltage loss), with 2.5 sqmm spines.
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James Curran wrote: So, the question for the electrically minded here: If all you had available to power your device was an USB cable, would that be viable?
Well, it totally depends on what you are powering, but for many things it is totally viable.
For example, I built a device that runs off my USB port that is a Arduino pro micro (with ATMega 32u4) which emulates a HID (human interface device) --in my case keyboard.
Take a look at this snapshot of it running on my computer[^] right now.
The item closest is the Arduino pro micro. The item at the back is soldered to the basic UART on the pro micro and is a Bluetooth (BT) device.
I can unlock my computer from my phone.
My Android phone (via app I wrote)
1. connects to bluetooth
2. sends password (encrypted over BT)
3. pro micro forwards the bytes sent as keystrokes on my computer (via HID)
4. unlocks my computer
It all runs off low voltage 5v powered off one USB port of my computer.
I even wrote this up as an article here on cp: Ending the Era of Weak Passwords: Never Type A Password Again (Never Memorize A Password Again)[^]
And even better here: Never Type A Password Again (The Continuing Saga)[^]
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Yes; these days, it does.
Years ago, some kid asked me to charge his phone on USB and naturally agreed. It was at 3% when he unplugged two hours later and started walking. (USB was up and coming those days).
USB, the "one universal" connector that fits all, comes in many shapes now. These days, my 10+ years old smartphone charges in an hour. I got a bunch of USB to USB converters, since USB on the PC isn't USB on the phone. If the kid would ask now, he'd have his phone completely charged in that time.
And got one of them "no plug" recharger-stations as a present. If recharches phones bloody damn quick, without connecting a cable! To me, that's magic. Or more realistic, it is physics I don't understand yet.
But from the looks, they can draw a lot of power, even if the PC is actually turned of. My keyboard does the same, it keeps displaying this RGB backlit even if the PC is "off". Push any button, and in seconds there's a login.
--
You could of course look up the power that USB3 provides, a quick Google would provide that. Including on which pin, and how much m-amperes.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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One factor (although not the only one) killing SCSI was the bewilderment of cables. When I went to the computer shop to get a conversion cable for my eight SCSI 'standard'  plug, and the salesman made a sigh: You are lucky - we have fourteen different SCSI standards! - then I called it a quit. No matters what other advantages SCSI might have, I will never cope with fourteen different plugs, not even if they are compatible at a higher level!
The bewilderment of mostly needless USB cable variations point in the direction of the SCSI demise. We have created a mess that can't survive. The 'micro B' was a worthless sidestep of no benefit. The great marketing benefit of USB-C was 'you can put it in in any orientation that you want'. World-shaking news! Try to convince British guys that if they had stayed within EU, they would have been happy to get grounded AC plugs that could be turned 180 degrees when plugging in - that would be great, wouldn't it? (Those Brits never realized what they lost in Brexit!)
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trønderen wrote: Try to convince British guys that if they had stayed within EU
Unrelated, but try as they would, the EU is going to block it. If they succeed, more countries get the same idea, and thus we been blocking and torpedoeing all. We can't allow that to be a success.
trønderen wrote: (Those Brits never realized what they lost in Brexit!)
Those Brits are about to become Hong Kong near China. A free port, near a closed mainland. They'd grow, whatever our "deal". So, we hurt them as much as we can, hoping Italy doesn't follow.
trønderen wrote: we have fourteen different SCSI standards! - then I called it a quit. No matters what other advantages SCSI might have, I will never cope with fourteen different plugs, not even if they are compatible at a higher level!
Luckily, we have USB now.
Ehr..
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Or more realistic, it is physics I don't understand yet
Think transformer without an iron core, with one winding in the plate, and the other in the phone.
It's ridiculously inefficient, in the neighborhood of 50%.
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Hmmm... How'd I miss that... (I think I just looked under "General Discussion", forgetting there are other sections).
Truth,
James
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Well I'm more a hardware guy than softwares so I can probably answer this from a different perspective. While low power coming from the wall sockets is good for things like mobiles and some plug in lights and some other things you can get issues when say a TV or monitor need a supply that can be 'altered' to allow then to work (a flat panel screen uses 1000's of volts, scary but current is so low to be not dangerous unless you want flash burns). While displays can be made to work of low voltage they are not that robust or long lived. House hold appliances which need 230/240 volts at 10 - 13 amps forget about!. I think the issue is down to good for some(alot) of things But mains power is needed for other things to make them efficient. Also high power DC not safe in the slightest (despite Edisons claims) if there a short on a DC power line you usually get somke and damage to the circuit board and wires connecting it, AC a pop, blown fuse, maybe a skid mark! Also getting zapped but AC not good, I have the scars from an AC zap that if it was DC would have more than likely killed me. AC good, DC bad. So I think USB is really a non-starter. 
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Well, I don't see it as a complete replacement for household electric needs, just those which require low voltage/low amperage.
Truth,
James
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Having a 12VDC distribution network in your house has some distinct advantages.
First: I guess this depends on where you live, but around here, you can't do much more than replace a lightbulb without calling a professional electrician, and they are expensive. With 12VDC you can do all or most of the work yourself.
The risks of electrical shock, fires etc. are far smaller with 12VDC than with 230VAC.
Assuming that you draw the power from a (usually solar-powered) battery bank, you still have light during a power blackout.
For the myriads of small electrical equipment - active USB hubs, external PC disks requiring external power, small radios and similar electronics, LED strips, toys, chargers for anything from electric knives to flashlights ... - requiring low voltage power, you can get rid of these clunky charger bricks; you use a simple cable.
Yet, when I tell people that I am making a 12VDC in my home, practically everyone shakes their head and think I am crazy. A few of them know enough to ask questions in the style of "But haven't you been think of ...?" - the high current, high losses, required cable dimension, whatever. I give them my answers, which they usually accept as good enough, "But still, do you really think it is a good idea?" Yes, I do. "Well, I wouldn't..." So be prepared for some resistance from friends.
And try to reduce the resistance in the cables. Make a plan for where the cables should run - the shortest path possible.
One trick I will be using to shorten cables: They go straight to the drain (e.g. lamp), not making a detour to a wall switch and back again. Rather, in the connection point for that lamp, you put a two-coil, bi-stable relay. The two coils are connected on the one pole to the 12VDC, the other to a thin control lead that you can pull anywhere, to as many on-off-switches you want. Switches are "call button" type: A brief press on the "On" button activates the one coil, pulling the relay to the "On" state. A press on the "Off" button activates the other coil, pulling the relay "Off". (I actually use 3-position toggle switches returning to middle position, no connection. Pressing at the top, the "on" control line is shorted to ground, pressing at the bottom shorts the "off" line to ground.) The control lines need only carry enough power to draw the relay coil, which is usually not much, and only while you press the button.
Along that control line, you can put as many ways to short to ground as you like. E.g. when you open you main door, a contact strip may turn light on in you entrance. You can have switches for turning the light on/off both at the top and bottom of the stairs. You could have a switching transistor do the shorting, the transistor base controlled by a computer. (From a PC, you can use a USB-to-LPT adapter, switching one control line through each data pin, or you could have more direct signals from some SBC like an Arduino.)
I was much in doubt about what kind of sockets to use for plug-in devices, but settled on 3-pin XLR connectors (I mistakenly wrote "XLR connector" in an earlier post; it was supposed to be XLR!), prepared for 12VDC, ground and 5VDC - but I am not sure that I will stick to 5VDC. It will probably be 24VDC - my solar panel battery bank is 24V, and some equipment both in fans and light are available in bigger capacities as 24VDC models.
So go ahead with your low-volt DC network!
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Being an hardware guy too, just want to add to what Glenn said...
Electrocution voltage is smaller for DC than for AC, meaning that you can be electrocuted with a much smaller voltage (considering the same current).
Lower voltage implies:
1) higher current for the same power, which in turn implies:
1.a) thicker cabling
1.b) greater heat losses because the current is continuous and the wires, besides heating more from the higher current, do not have time to cool down. In AC, the wires cool as the current goes toward zero in every cycle.
1.c) more expensive protection circuitry since it is harder to detect anomalies. As an example, in DC you do not have phase nor frequency that can be used for detection. Nor can you rely on the return path, which is fixed at zero, unlike in AC where short-circuits can be detected on the return path when using circuit breakers (not fuses).
1.d) more complex and expensive conversion systems
2) since with DC there is no signal on the return path (negative wire) and the current is higher, there are higher EMI (electro-magnetic interference) whenever a device gets connected/disconnected/changes power drawn. On AC the signal on the positive wire and the signal on the negative wire almost cancel each other.
With that said, there are wall sockets that have a transformer inside of them to convert the 230/110VAC to 5VDC and these are used and are safe since the transmission is still low power AC. But you have to choose them thinking on the future since many devices powered by USB consume more and more current.
If you are considering transmitting DC power from a central location throughout your house I advise against it, as you will be spending more money, both short term (cables through walls) and long term (power losses), and increase the risk of accidents (like fire from overheating cables).
Some years ago, I had a colleague that had installed 12VDC distribution lines throughout is house to power a refrigerator, some tools and an "emergency system" (he didn't specified what that was) and had a fire precisely due to wires overheating. He ended having to pay a fine for 1) having an installation that did not comply with the law (in my country it is forbidden to have DC distribution in domestic buildings) and 2) for not having protection systems on that circuit. He also had to pay for repairs on his house and on his neighbors houses who were also affected by the fire. His insurance did not cover any costs as the installation was illegal.
DC distribution only makes sense for very high voltages (over 100KV) since losses in AC, at those voltages, become higher.
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Yes, it is possible to do it the wrong way. It is possible to do it the right way, too!
ElectronProgrammer wrote: Electrocution voltage is smaller for DC than for AC, meaning that you can be electrocuted with a much smaller voltage (considering the same current).
Like 12VDC ...
I am surprised that you are at all allowed to sell 12VDC adapters, car batteries and PC power supplies delivering 12VDC! 
If you set up a home 12VDC network, you will of course protect every single branch with fuses dimensioned for the expected load on that branch. Do you know what kind of current a lead-acid car battery can deliver? Compare that to the fuse protecting a LED strip. I honestly do not fear for my life, even if I am now installing a 12VDC network in my home.
Besides: In practical use, how would I get at that 12VDC to be electrocuted? Sockets, plugs and cables for 12VDC are as well insulated as for 230VAC. I won't be touching it. Only when installing new branches, new light fixtures, will I have direct access to the 12V. And why should I be less careful when doing this installation, compared to working with 230VAC?
Lower voltage implies:
1) higher current for the same power, which in turn implies:
1.a) thicker cabling True, if we are talking about the same effect. But are we? A 12VDC network is not for feeding vacuum cleaners and dishwashers, but for LED lights, charging mobile phones and power feeding your external PC disk. Fifty watts of LED light on a single branch will brighten up your living room!
Look at the cabling for your 230VAC supply: A 1.5 sqmm is considered enough to carry 10A, or 2300 watts. Use the same cable with 12VDC: 120 watt is a lot for 12V based applications. At least in Norway, new houses are wired with 2.5 sqmm cables, handling 15-16A, or almost 200 watts if you use similar cabling for your 12VDC network.
1.b) greater heat losses because the current is continuous and the wires, besides heating more from the higher current, do not have time to cool down. In AC, the wires cool as the current goes toward zero in every cycle. Fascinating idea: Giving the cables an opportunity to "cool down" every 10 milliseconds somehow makes it easier to dissipate the heat, when given the same resistance and total power loss. Honestly, I am somewhat sceptic to your theory.
c) more expensive protection circuitry since it is harder to detect anomalies. As an example, in DC you do not have phase nor frequency that can be used for detection. Nor can you rely on the return path, which is fixed at zero, unlike in AC where short-circuits can be detected on the return path when using circuit breakers (not fuses). Do you have similar consideration for the cable between the 12VDC adapter plugged into the wall outlet and your external disk? We are talking about an extended version of that! The systems you are talking about are "grid related", of no relevance to, say, an active USB device powered from a solar battery bank.
1.d) more complex and expensive conversion systems Whatever "conversion system" e.g. that USB hub has for providing 5VDC USB power from the 12VDC input is internal to the hub. And if the external power is provided by a 230-to-12VDC adapter plugged into the grid outlet, or provided by the 12VDC distribution system of my house, the task doesn't become more "complex and expensive".
2) since with DC there is no signal on the return path (negative wire) and the current is higher, there are higher EMI (electro-magnetic interference) whenever a device gets connected/disconnected/changes power drawn. We are talking about devices drawing a handful of watts, at most - not of trans-ocean gigawatt cables, where your concerns are certainly valid. But not in a private home where you switch on a LED light of 5-10 watts!
there are wall sockets that have a transformer inside of them to convert the 230/110VAC to 5VDC Sure, but during a blackout, you are blacked out. One major reason for a 12VDC home network is to prevent that. Also, you need to call an electrician to make any change to your setup.
If you are considering transmitting DC power from a central location throughout your house I advise against it, as you will be spending more money, both short term (cables through walls) and long term (power losses), and increase the risk of accidents (like fire from overheating cables). The right way to do it includes - as you also say - doing it from a central point in your house, with a star of cables spreading from there. There probably won't be that many users per "star beam"; you need no monster cables! Obviously, you protect every cable with fuses well below the capacity of the cable, so that it will never overheat.
In my own setup, I have 4 sqmm four-armed star at each floor, with side branches to each specific lamp, fan or outlet using 2.5 sqmm cables. Calculate the power losses: In my house, the maximum cable distance from the center is 8 meters, typically half of which runs through 4 sqmm cable, half through 2.5 sqmm. To put it short: It won't cause you to throw out your old electrical heaters!
Some years ago, I had a colleague that had installed 12VDC distribution lines throughout is house to power a refrigerator, some tools and an "emergency system" (he didn't specified what that was) and had a fire precisely due to wires overheating. To put it bluntly: So it wasn't done the right way. Even a low-voltage installation requires some knowledge of how to do it. Overheating due to incorrect dimensioning, and lack of overload protection with fuses, is just as bad with low-voltage installations as with 230VAC installations. Finding cases where unqualified 230VAC installations have caused fires is not difficult!
Another side is that you should know where 12VDC is a viable alternative. Anything involving motors is on the dubious side.
He ended having to pay a fine for 1) having an installation that did not comply with the law (in my country it is forbidden to have DC distribution in domestic buildings)Here (Norway), you can have a distribution net up to 200 watts, which covers a whole lot of the needs. It must be available for inspection, and wherever a cable goes though a wall, it must be in an a pipe of non-burning material (for all practical purposes: metal).
and 2) for not having protection systems on that circuit. That is a cardinal sin! So it wasn't done right. Bottom line: Do it right!
DC distribution only makes sense for very high voltages (over 100KV) since losses in AC, at those voltages, become higher. Sorry, I cannot agree. You cannot simply transfer the issues of gigawatt power lines into the home, and state that they apply equally in that context. If you insist on doing so, you will have to be prepared to explain how the same arguments count against 12VDC adapters. Or explain what makes the major difference between the AC adapter in the wall outlet, with a two meter cable, and the central 12VDC provision with an eight meter cable.
modified 12-Feb-21 16:39pm.
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