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First make it.
Then make it work. 
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I'm guessing it's still like that in a lot of places.
Except that very few now care about making it fast (or not a memory pig). Our customers used to raise hell if the system's capacity degraded by more than ~2% in a major release, which was naturally the result of their feature demands.
Nowadays, "stateless" programming is all the rage. Good Lord, we would have been out of business yesterday.
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Oh yeah, make it fast stopped being a rule back when pentium 4s stopped being a thing. =P
But this was back when we were trying to host com+ apps on an NT4 box and serve by taking over Asp's role. My first implementation served about 4 pages per second of our test website.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Where I work, cowboy coding is the rule. Stuff always needs to be done yesterday.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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I was sometimes in environments like that too. Eventually it gets seen as just another "Wolf!" story, particularly when others (executives, sales) aren't held to account for their failures to deliver.
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Not sure what he needs. But wherever he needs it today, is it not on the surface of planet Earth.
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
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0x01AA wrote: I wouldn't say his voice, his engagement has gotten worse. But then why does he need all these legs and tits and asses now
He is already dead so I'm afraid he doesn't need anything now... 
Leaving the Woodstock magic/history appart, the second is a much better show than the first one.
And let's see... this is not new by any means: 1980 Joe Cocker[^]...
Girls & music have been there since the first day.
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I've been out of the field for a decade, and I think it grew up while I was away.
I don't know, because I don't work in it directly anymore, but I get little impressions here and there, everything from friends, to the ads I see on code project, to the types of developers I run into these days, it seems like the industry is more straight-laced than it was in the 90's and early aughts.
Like, me, I stand the hell out wherever I'm at, whether I mean to or not. I'm very eccentric (technically actually quite mad), and it used to be almost a selling point in the field. Now I think it would be a red flag to a lot of potential employers, like it is in a "real job"
So for you breadwinners and wageslaves in the field who have been in it for awhile, is this impression anywhere near accurate, or is the industry still a sideshow of geeks *and* freaks?
Real programmers use butterflies
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"Eccentricity" isn't a positive trait so it's not something companies particularly look for. Especially big ones and ones with HR departments as they have to think about team cohesion and they tend to not want people who don't "fit". Saying that, though, it's a creative industry and I always say that if you want to work with creative people you're going to have to put up with a little crazy, but most people I run into in the industry are fairly normal with a smattering of the occasional "character".
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I'm not saying it's something employers seek out or ever have. I'm more talking about tolerance for it, but I'll defer here since I've been out of the field, like I said.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Some forms are more tolerated than others...someone might wear a Pokemon backpack to work even though they are 40, someone else might declare to all "OMG I'm so eccentric, me!"
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not me, i'm just visibly weird. I dress funny, apparently, and i am quite literally schizo which lends itself to seeming "off" to people. Plus I'm genderweird.
Always have been. It's just who I am.
Real programmers use butterflies
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As someone who grew up when society was still quite straightlaced (1950s), I don't find your description of yourself at all weird. given the conversations and publicity about gender these days I assume that all people under 50 take it in their stride. As to "dressing funny", who has the right to determine how anyone should dress?
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: who has the right to determine how anyone should dress?
Your employer 
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Most software engineers work in small startups, in large corporations, or in academia. As always, eccentricity is tolerated in small companies (especially if one is a founder) or in academia (if one is also brilliant), but is discouraged in large companies. The only difference is the mix - a larger proportion of software engineers work in large companies.
In short, the industry has (partly) grown up. 
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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in my fractal transformation from psychotherapist/academic to programmer ... beginning about age 42, in 1985 ... from early Berkeley BMUG meetings, to starting my first company, Technical Document Design ... to Cricket Software, to IDD, to Emerald City, to Adobe, to BHP Australia, to WildTangent ...
i have seen every type of person, worked with humble geniuses, and loud divas, and, all i can say is that ... to my old man's one good eye, at present ... they all look like ... people ... in the sense that their essential humanity eclipses the outer styles, and personae.
imho, parenting, schooling, socialization, modulo the flavors/timbre of the times ... attempts to pour our somewhat malleable social self into certain common behavioral/experiential molds, but, then, oh glory !, our intrinsic nature, our visceral primate core, struggle to fit in the mold, or, in the case of people like myself, perhaps like you, to dynamite it, and transit morbio inferiore [1] to another shell !
but, i am not saying that any of this is virtuous 
[1] morbio inferiore an actual valley in Switzerland which, because of the mountains, is always in shadow. in Hermann Hesse's novels, "The Journey to the East," and "The Glass Bead Game," a metaphor for the spiritual darkness that is a part of personal transformation.
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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BillWoodruff wrote: i have seen every type of person, worked with humble geniuses, and loud divas, and, all i can say is that ... to my old man's one good eye, at present ... they all look like ... people ... in the sense that their essential humanity eclipses the outer styles, and personae.
I can't tell if that would preclude or guarantee you a position in HR.
Real programmers use butterflies
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I'm afraid not, because you missed one essential fact about Bill: he can use words of more than two syllables. That automatically makes him ineligible for corporate admin of any kind.
Software Zen: delete this;
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That's fair. 
Real programmers use butterflies
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honey the codewitch wrote: So for you breadwinners and wageslaves in the field who have been in it for awhile, is this impression anywhere near accurate, or is the industry still a sideshow of geeks and freaks?
Pfft! The geeks and freaks are still out there, and that's where you want to be. At least for me it is.
SJWs and snowflakes need not apply.
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I'm a social justice arsonist. I'm not sure where that leaves me.
Real programmers use butterflies
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honey the codewitch wrote: I'm a social justice arsonist. I'm not sure where that leaves me.
it leaves you basking in the warmth of the flames you work so hard to keep feeding flammable material 
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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For the record I think you're one of the eccentric ones as well. Maybe with you it just comes out less in how you present and more in how you communicate and/or think.
Real programmers use butterflies
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honey the codewitch wrote: you're one of the eccentric ones as well
Oh you are just now getting that, if you and Bill get together in the same room I want to be a fly on the wall, it should be hilarious.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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