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honey the codewitch wrote: and I think it grew up
Up, no. Orthogonal is more apt. More languages, more frameworks, more open source, more management products, more tooling. Basically, the software development field has acquired a PhD - Piled Higher and Deeper. But "up"? Not really.
honey the codewitch wrote: or is the industry still a sideshow of geeks *and* freaks?
Short answer: YES!
Long answer: YES YES YES!!!
Them again, in the new normal of the Covid world, define "normal" vs. "freak". As the Vulcan's say (and apparently Gene Roddenberry disliked): "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination." No labels.
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hah, fair enough.
Real programmers use butterflies
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What an interesting question, and interesting answers as well! I have been in and out and in and half out and back since 1983. Yes, I think there has been a some shift as you describe yes, but I doubt that engineering is the only place on Earth where this has changed since 1980. And methinx, it is partly due to a maturity of the industry...
Oh yes "maturity" what a bleedin' boring word! Yeah it is boring but I do believe that "we" have become more efficient through teamwork and that the value of a team has increased...
...And I do not find the shift lamentable at all. If I would hire I would not mind a some degree of eccentricity, a wide mix of personalities makes life fun! But what is eccentric? Refusing to use source control? Refusing to write comments? Ignoring "silly" questions from less brilliant team members? I dunno. Just one example: Adhering to certain principles, such as meticulously consistent code formatting might seem pointless, even offensive, to some "free spirits". But the code lives many years past "some" leave the ship, and inconsistent formatting and naming, in a large and old codebase does increase the pain even of just reading it, and changing it much more so. I have come to a point where I value such meticulous "boring conformism".
I know this is not exactly what you asked, but you pushed an invisible button of mine, and I did answer on the first line.
☕
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
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It's fine, no worries. I'm more thinking about soft skills, and ability to deal with general weirdness. I learned to avoid attempting to act like a normal person for interviews because I found i'd get hired but of course I'd revert to self and then there'd be "soft problems" with my supervisor - "personality stuff" and other intangibles, but if i just put myself forward quirks and all from the time of the interview, I found the right fit. **
But I'm just thinking there's less of those "right fits" out there these days for weirdos like me.  I don't mind from a personal standpoint so much because I'm out and never going back but i wonder about the other lovely weirdos out there.
** So whatever it is those "right fits" seem important. I can "fake normalcy" for some amount of time, but I've found it's not a good idea. I'm just weird. Part of it is that I'm schizo, so get me talking too long on anything and you start to realize that we're not quite dealing in the same reality. =) (not kidding) - and wavelengths generally are just off.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Geeks and freaks all the way, we just learnt to dress incospicuously: when you're at the customer site, everything is going to Hell due to their bad decisions and the customer managers are looking at someone to hang, quarter and crucify... you don't want to stand out.
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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I learned the opposite, personally. Since I can't blend for any length of time, I learned to just be myself at the interviews in order to make sure I found the right place for me.
As I just wrote to another commenter above (take it as you will)
I learned to avoid attempting to act like a normal person for interviews because I found i'd get hired but of course I'd revert to self and then there'd be "soft problems" with my supervisor - "personality stuff" and other intangibles, but if i just put myself forward quirks and all from the time of the interview, I found the right fit.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Me too, I just stated what I see around me. In facts I do stand out and I had my a** burned more than once for it. I also got a lot of good reputation and an aura of "mad genius" (I take exception at the last one), depending on the customer.
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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den2k88 wrote: I also got a lot of good reputation and an aura of "mad genius" (I take exception at the last one), depending on the customer.
Pretty much the same, except I didn't take exception to it. I guess I kind of learned to love my madness before anyone else did. It was either that, or mourn it, and goth is so 1990s. 
Real programmers use butterflies
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 I never really made it into the geek/freak club, I started too late with a family to feed so was focused on the money for which you need to conform to a certain degree.
I do believe the techie kids these days are ALL focused on the money and don't have the time or the inclination to break the corporate bondage.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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me i thought it was cool they were actually going to pay me for stuff I'd do anyway. Then I found out it was actually work.
Real programmers use butterflies
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honey the codewitch wrote: i thought it was cool they were actually going to pay me for stuff I'd do anyway
I think you will find that applies to a lot of us. I got sacked for writing excel macros to support my sales job, so then I got a job writing excel macros, it went down hill from there.
I've always seen software as a tool to support a job, now that I'm retired I no longer have the urge to code, weird.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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I code for the love of it. The stuff I write today few people will ever use for work. I mean, parsers maybe i guess but MIDI libraries in managed code probably not.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Mycroft Holmes wrote: I've always seen software as a tool to support a job, now that I'm retired I no longer have the urge to code, weird
So, you need a task.
So do I.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Never stop dreaming - Freddie Kruger
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Mycroft Holmes wrote: I do believe the techie kids these days are ALL focused on the money and don't have the time or the inclination to break the corporate bondage.
In the US, that'd be because they're trying to break the student loan bondage.
Where you are, it's probably because they have to save up so they can afford to buy a shed.
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a guy asked me if I knew any youtube channels that taught asp net core... and I was like ... man time have changed...
We are in the beginning of a mass extinction. - Greta Thunberg
Caveat Emptor.
"Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long
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It's all about soft skills nowadays.
And DevOps and Cloud and front-end frameworks and CI tools and Scrum and Agile and paradigms and consulting and managing.
I can tell you what it's not about, code and databases, knowledge of those are nice-to-haves.
Just look at some average commercial code base and you'll know what I'm talking about.
I used my Master of ARTS as a USP.
It "enables me to explain tech in non-tech terms to non-tech people because I have a non-tech background" 
Your madness could be a red flag as you may not fit in the team or may not be a team player.
Your lack of curly braces in single-line if-statements is a far more serious problem though 
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Is a gallery full of pig pictures Swine Art?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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What a swill idea!
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
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You can bacon it!
Real programmers use butterflies
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Sounds like the pig pictures are hogging the gallery
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That's snout sow funny.
I'm not sure how many cookies it makes to be happy, but so far it's not 27.
JaxCoder.com
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Wouldn't that be a boar?
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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That's a lard to consider - what sequel-y odd is the how pork the gallery attendance turned out - perhaps people decided to sty home?
(I'm home today - just checked in to check out ToD. Bye, all!)
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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It is funny how you your quadruple-counter-puns are always recognisable even at the first quarter of the lot. I just read
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: That's a lard to consider -
and I knew it was the unimitalble W∴ Balboos !
...
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
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