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So, still something that requires me to divert my attention away from whatever I'm doing...
Why does Microsoft suddenly hate keyboards?
(Keyboard + Muscle Memory) > (Mouse + Hunting for crap on a charms bar)
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That full screen start menu is sometimes annoying
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That full screen start menu is sometimes annoying
FTFY
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough."
Alan Kay.
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The only time it is annoying is when I want it to show in the portion of the screen absent of a metro app instead of taking total control of the screen.
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So... your muscle memory can't remember winKey + C?
there's a keyboard shortcut for everything, except shutting down the device, that's still a pain 
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I'm not sure, but doesn't that go back to the start page? (I have win 7 at work, so I can't try it)
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That has the same result in every version of windows.
Whatever app has the focus Alt-F4 will close.
If the desktop has focus or no apps are running pressing alt-f4 will shut the machine down
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failure1:
to "type from the start menu" you have to make it active first, hiding your application you have been working with. In W7 search, I don't have to switch to desktop, and can see the last active window I have been working with, helping to remind me what I was searching for. (and yes, that's sometimes quite helpful, when I don't exactly remember how the file is named that I'm looking for.
failure 2:
having a "swipe bar" on the desktop. Or even a tablet, for that matter. There's more than aenough screen estate to provide actionable UI elements for relevant system functions, e. g. on the task bar. There's no need nor reason to add a popup sidebar that just gets in the way more often than not.
failure 3:
Having to move your mouse to a far corner just to show a relevant function takes a lot more effort and energy than simply pressing the windows button to open the start menu.
failure 4:
the default search in W8 is searching for apps. That's about the least useful kind of search I can think of: when I search for something on my local system, it is a data file, 99% of the time!
failure 5:
W8 search will not find most data files, even if you tell it to go looking for something different than apps. W7 search finds files, applications, settings, and even emails, no problem! I've seen lots of complaints about that, and little to no solution offered besides switching to another search tool, or file search in Windows Explorer.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Failure 1 can be avoided by using the charms bar and then the search shows on top of the desktop
Short-cut Windows-Logo-Key + S
Failure 2 there is no chrome is important, otherwise the Metro UI would not be able to have its own look on Windows Phone, its own look on Xbox and still function well on the Desktop while only being one code set.
Failure 3 Learn the short cuts that start with the Windows-Logo-Key
Failure 4 update to windows 8.1 that searches everywhere
Failure 5 Update to Windows 8.1
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Failure 1
I was responding to:
ColborneGreg wrote: In windows 8 - you just start typing from the start menu.
Your argument makes that point irrelevant.
Failure 2
I couldn't care less about Phone or XBox. All we're discussing is desktop, which is a huge failure.
ColborneGreg wrote: still function well on the Desktop
Define "well" - it's much worse than W7.
Failure 3
ColborneGreg wrote: Learn the short cuts
Sure, I will. But why is it considered an improvement that I need to learn more shortcuts? All this proves is that there is no benefit at all to the Charms Bar. It shouldn't be on the desktop at all! At least not on a system with keyboard and without touch interface.
Failure 4
According to MS, the default is still to search only for apps in W8.1: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/search-apps-files-settings[^] Do you have better info than that?
Failure 5
I won't switch to 8.1 for my own reasons that I will not discuss here. Whether it solves the issue I can't say - a quick search turned up no explicit information, although some passages I've seen imply that it's at least possible to search for images and other media files. For the sake of argument, lets assume this is fixed.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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No it proves how you want something that's it.
My point is that whatever way to search it is provides an easy in your face method (not a desktop style which confuses everyone) that is easy to use.
The market is not buying desktops, they are buying touch devices, they are buying Xboxes.
That link says "By default, the Search charm searches the apps, files, and settings on your PC and OneDrive, plus the web"
PLUS THE WEB
Well when you hack an operating system it makes it impossible to update the OS to Windows 8.1.
I find people that have never paid for Windows dislike Windows 8.
Nedella just posted this all over the campus in a very basic poster
"It would be to easy to do what we have always done, but the world does not need another operating system"
Which is a direct stab at the rumors of Windows 9 - that it doesn't exist.
It would be to easy to do what we have always done - is a stab that any desktop design is something to drop.
Ballmer before releasing Windows 8.1 stated that from now on we are on consecutive roll outs in both Visual Studio and Windows
Windows 8 is the progression to remove the desktop as the primary focus of the operating system while at the beginning standing on the history of the desktop, to not only keep the current customer base happy but to push out of that bubble and tap into the non microsofts of the world
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Nobody is arguing how well it works (or not) on other devices. It's a failure for desktop. That's all I'm saying.
As for search, searching the web by default is also a big nono for me. It just means that not only will my actual online searches be registered and accumulated by who-knows-whom, now even my offline searches will!? No, thanks. MS has made it very clear that a whole lot of data will be routed through their servers, and the NSA has made very clear that these servers aren't safe from spying eyes, even if they're located outside the US! As a consequence, several governments have already moved away from Windows! UK is not using it, China neither, and the german government has strongly warned against it although it hasn't officially banned its use just yet.
As for moving away the focus from the desktop, I'm sure this will happen, but it's way too early for that. It's certainly wise for MS to head in that direction, but they shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. For now, it's the desktop users who provide the vast majority of products for the Windows ecosystem, and MS simply can't afford to alienate their most important support base: the developers.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Listening to developers is how Windows lost the game to Android.
Listening to paranoid people is how Microsoft security becomes victim to other problems.
Microsoft is dedicated to provide systems that do not store information about you, while also having a dedicated team to removing the exploits of the NSA.
The Chinese government banned Windows after Microsoft refused to give them the source code.
Other Countries deny the use of American products as it provides money to the American economy.
As for the Windows 8 being a failure for Desktop I agreed when I first started and agreed with it as long as I didn't give windows 8 a chance, but simply put the productivity of Windows 8 on the desktop is tenfold over any other system once the user understands how to take advantage of that system.
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ColborneGreg wrote: Listening to developers
I'm not talking about listening to developers, but about providing a sensible production environment to developers.
ColborneGreg wrote: is how Windows lost the game to Android.
Wow. Just wow. Please stick to the facts.
ColborneGreg wrote: Microsoft is dedicated to provide systems that do not store information about you, while also having a dedicated team to removing the exploits of the NSA.
Thats their official statement, and I'm even inclined to believe them, but it won't help if the US court decides against them. The US court has shown remarkably consistency in its utterly insane decisions regarding privacy and software in general, so I wouldn't be holding my breath on that one.
ColborneGreg wrote: Other Countries deny the use of American products as it provides money to the American economy.
BS. UK and Germany are both allies, and keen on strong economical relations. If anything, they've been using Windows before in spite of the cost. In China, MS sells Windows for next to nothing, just to ensure there's a solid user base for Office and other products which are the real cash cows.
ColborneGreg wrote: the productivity of Windows 8 on the desktop is tenfold over any other system
BS. The vast majority of developers oppose that statement, and even official MS sources admitted to most of the failures I'v pointed out before. Just look at the W9 preview.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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you wrote Quote: MS simply can't afford to alienate their most important support base: the developers
Aka listening to developers
Are you saying that Android does not have 90% of the global cell market share?
If you don't understand the concept of nationalism what is the point of arguing with you the politics of said concept?
Considering I use a multi monitor desktop, every other operating system forces me to interact with the primary monitor Windows 8 thanks to the charms bar allows users to interact with any monitor while the primary monitor is taken by a full screen app.
There are a million reasons why I can live life 1000 times more productive with Windows 8 then anything else - that is a fact.
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ColborneGreg wrote: There are a million reasons why I can live life 1000 times more productive with Windows 8 then anything else - that is a fact.
If that is what you call a fact, there is nothing left to discuss. 
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Anything that someone derives meaning from and is explained by that person - is a fact by definition
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DOS: I spent more time playing with AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS trying to get the best memory config for a game, than I did playing the game...
Until DOOM of course. That consumed a year or two of my life.
WIN3.11: Introduced LANs that didn't need a full-time network admin and exploded networking into small companies. Remember what we had before it? Novell Netware command line interface, anyone? :ack: :spit:
Win95: Good for it's time, but over hyped by MS. Plug and Pray a big disappointment.
Win98: Better than 95 once you got it running properly.
Win2000 and ME: O. My. God.
No. Just No. 
XP: Good. Solid, quick, easy. Plug and Pray started to work.
Vista: Avoided. I'd like to say "wisely", but that would be a lie.
Win7: Best so far - it works, and doesn't have too many weird ones.
Win8: Oh dear. A phone OS trying to work on the desktop. Horrible to install, horrible to use. It may work well once you use it as a phone OS - but I use desktops so it can go sit in the corner and play with itself. Major mistake by MS, as the sales figures have shown. Only time since DOS4 that people have upgraded en mass back to the previous version to get rid of it...and the 8.1 patch was too little, too late.
Win9: Hopefully a goodie - but I think it will have to be to get over the Win8 debacle, in the same way the Win7 had to be with vista.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Windows 8 brings in System on a chip so whenever I install on a new machine there is not any drivers to be installed except for your favourite video driver.
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How many times do you think I install an OS on my machine?
Once, if I'm lucky.
So it doesn't matter to me how much easier Weight makes it to copy it from one machine to another, because I won't be doing it.
It doesn't matter how much "technically better" it may be if all it does in the real world is cause me more grief, more support calls from friends because "it doesn't work", or it's hard to install - which is true for a normal user.
XP, Win7 - they expanded and improved the user experience. Weight trashed it.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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OK, ok; what about this.
Multi monitor support; desktop no touch.
Windows 7; Once a full screen game is playing on one screen nothing can happen on the other. (Many situations like this)
Windows 8; With a full screen metro game (such as halo) on one screen any thing can happen on the other screen while maintaining focus to both.
Civilization 5 on one screen and Hyper for Youtube on the other is a great way to waste an hour.
Using a desktop app in Windows 8 breaks this ability and is why the desktop sucks.
With a touch screen you can touch and control both apps at once, and with Kinect 2 - you can turn 50 inch screens into touch capabilities.
modified 4-Aug-14 15:00pm.
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ColborneGreg wrote: Windows 7; Once a full screen game is playing on one screen nothing can happen on the other.
True, but you can always run it in windowed mode, and actually take advantage of the additional screen(s)!
ColborneGreg wrote: With a touch screen you can touch and control both apps at once
Nobody here argues about the virtues of W8 for touch based devices - it's all about it's uselessness for touchless desktops!
ColborneGreg wrote: with Kinect 2 - you can turn 50 inch screens into touch capabilities
gesture-based input in general is not restricted to W8. Kinect, specifically, is restricted to the XBOX, and thus not available to Windows 8 desktop, nor Windows 8 tablets or phones. What's your point?
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Doesn't amtter at all - it's not a part of W8, and - as the link you gracefully provided points out - available even for non-Windows system. Your point contributes nothing to the "W8 is cr@p for the desktop" argument.
P.S.:
Still, thanks for the link, I wasn't actually aware Kinect (whatever version) was opened to other platforms. The article even points to an earlier one discussing its use on Windows, including Win XP: http://blog.3dsense.org/programming/programovani-s-kinectem-2-instalace-ovladacu-openni-pod-windows/[^]
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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